Noque +1C/0C/-1C

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SpecialGreen
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Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby SpecialGreen » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:36 pm

Looks like the Noquemanon will have freezing rain/ice Friday morning, then above freezing for 12+ hours, finally dropping below freezing early AM on race-day. Racers may experience -1C and light snow (like 0.5 cm per hour).

Toko and Swix don't appear to have given any recs yet. FastWax is recommending teal/red over blue base layer, and a fine, linear structure. And lots of flouro. I've read some discussion here about dedicated warm skis, and avoiding getting blue into them. What result are people looking for putting a warmer glide wax over a colder wax?

I had also been thinking of a broken structure (Toko yellow structureite). Maybe I should tone it down a bit. After the rain stops, I'm planning to test a pair of klister skis with powergrip violet, mild-warm grind and HSRF red; and a pair of universal grind soft skis with violet hardwax and HSLF red.

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Blah » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:52 pm

My Rec for Start. Oslo was awesome the week before at Seeley. Main difference this week is that temps will have been high much longer than at Seeley. I would strongly recommend Oslo Purple. It will work if the track is icy but it will also work if new snow falls vs powergrip will get draggy.

I would do some structure but I would be more concerned with getting kick dialed in than anything else.


START WAX

NOQUEMENON PRELMINARY REC

Races:Classic and Skate Racing

Race Time Temp: Low 30's with an overnight low of 28F

Snow Conditions: Possible new snow. I mean, it's the UP, so we can probably expect some snow.

GLIDE WAX

Base Layer: SG 8 Blue to harden base

Fluor Paraffin: MF or HF 6 Purple

Top Coat: SFR 60 powder or 99 block ironed in.

KICK WAX:

Binder: Special Violet Klister Ironed in. This is an amazing binder for warm snow around 32F.. You need a soft malleable wax for the soft snow conditions.

Kick: Oslo Violet - This is an EXCELLENT wax for varying conditions, which are a near certainty. It also doubles as a great wax around 32F. This wax is 1 part klister two parts hard wax with terva and silver in it to manage icing. It will work in a glazing track, new snow, or icy snow.

Extra Kick: FHF 20 kick wax cover. Cover waxing mean put a very thin layer over your kick and DO NOT CORK IN. Spread with your palm. This won't look pretty, that's ok.

Note: Most importantly DO NOT over think this kick wax job.

Common mistakes I have been seeing are:

- Too many layers of different waxes and thus causing icing. This happens when you try to sandwich too many layers of warm wax under cold ones.
- Going too warm. If you need more kick use the same wax line and put a slightly warmer wax under foot.
- If the wax line you are trying is not working at all for the correctly listed temps then it's time to use a different brand. Don't jump to a wax for 40F
Don't be afraid to use that klister binder..

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Blah » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:55 pm

SpecialGreen wrote:Looks like the Noquemanon will have freezing rain/ice Friday morning, then above freezing for 12+ hours, finally dropping below freezing early AM on race-day. Racers may experience -1C and light snow (like 0.5 cm per hour).

Toko and Swix don't appear to have given any recs yet. FastWax is recommending teal/red over blue base layer, and a fine, linear structure. And lots of flouro. I've read some discussion here about dedicated warm skis, and avoiding getting blue into them. What result are people looking for putting a warmer glide wax over a colder wax?

I had also been thinking of a broken structure (Toko yellow structureite). Maybe I should tone it down a bit. After the rain stops, I'm planning to test a pair of klister skis with powergrip violet, mild-warm grind and HSRF red; and a pair of universal grind soft skis with violet hardwax and HSLF red.


Regarding your question about a warm ski not getting blue wax. That could not be more incorrect. You are perfectly fine running a cold wax base and following that with something warmer. At Sochi last year Start was running their BM6 (Start Green with Moly) wax as a base layer in warm temps. I think this is common misinformation that has gotten out there. Conversely you should occasionally put some warmer wax into cold skis. If you just pump them full of green wax all the time they will stop accepting wax, you need warm wax underneath to bond to.

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Montana » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:59 pm

Wish I was there. Here's the Swix recs from Wednesday afternoon:
Glide wax recommendations
Base Layer: CH8X
LF Layer: LF8X
HF Layer: HF8X
Cera F Layer: FC8X Cera F Powder
Top Coat Layer: FC8X Solid Warm Turbo Block covered with HVC Warm Liquid
Note: If not using Cera F powder, apply FC8X Solid Warm Turbo after scraping and brushing HF8X. Roto-Fleece in FC8X Solid Warm Turbo, brush out and apply HVC Warm Liquid.

Kickwax recommendations
Binder Layer: VG35 Green Base Binder
Kicking Layer: VR50 (2-4 Layers)
Note- If more kick is needed, try VR55N. If more glide is needed, apply one layer of VX53.
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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Blah » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:06 pm

Montana wrote:Wish I was there. Here's the Swix recs from Wednesday afternoon:
Glide wax recommendations
Base Layer: CH8X
LF Layer: LF8X
HF Layer: HF8X
Cera F Layer: FC8X Cera F Powder
Top Coat Layer: FC8X Solid Warm Turbo Block covered with HVC Warm Liquid
Note: If not using Cera F powder, apply FC8X Solid Warm Turbo after scraping and brushing HF8X. Roto-Fleece in FC8X Solid Warm Turbo, brush out and apply HVC Warm Liquid.

Kickwax recommendations
Binder Layer: VG35 Green Base Binder
Kicking Layer: VR50 (2-4 Layers)
Note- If more kick is needed, try VR55N. If more glide is needed, apply one layer of VX53.


If I was using Swix, and putting on fluor, I would iron in FC8X and stick with that. The Swix blocks are mostly terrible and liquid waxes in a marathon are never a good idea. Basically you have rocket ships for the first 5km and once it wears off the skis become slower than if you had not applied it.

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby SpecialGreen » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:43 pm

Blah wrote:If I was using Swix, and putting on fluor, I would iron in FC8X and stick with that. The Swix blocks are mostly terrible and liquid waxes in a marathon are never a good idea. Basically you have rocket ships for the first 5km and once it wears off the skis become slower than if you had not applied it.


I'm not pulling my weight t to support the flour wax industry; I just upgraded to from carbon to fastwax LF this year. I do have the fastwax HF paste, which might help (a bit).

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Blah » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:06 pm

SpecialGreen wrote:
Blah wrote:If I was using Swix, and putting on fluor, I would iron in FC8X and stick with that. The Swix blocks are mostly terrible and liquid waxes in a marathon are never a good idea. Basically you have rocket ships for the first 5km and once it wears off the skis become slower than if you had not applied it.


I'm not pulling my weight t to support the flour wax industry; I just upgraded to from carbon to fastwax LF this year. I do have the fastwax HF paste, which might help (a bit).


I hear you! I don't expect most people to be putting on fluor. That was why I prefaced it with if I was using Swix, and putting on fluor.. :D
Paste wax isn't going to stay on your skis very long but it isn't going to hurt anything either

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Montana » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:50 am

Blah wrote:
Montana wrote:Wish I was there. Here's the Swix recs from Wednesday afternoon:
...


If I was using Swix, and putting on fluor, I would iron in FC8X and stick with that. The Swix blocks are mostly terrible and liquid waxes in a marathon are never a good idea. Basically you have rocket ships for the first 5km and once it wears off the skis become slower than if you had not applied it.

I wasn't suggesting that Swix is the way to go here. While I usually use Swix VR waxes fro grip I do not use Swix for glide. I posted the recommendations because they were up on the Swix site and they were probably not there when special green checked for the OP.
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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby MN Hoser » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:00 am

Rode recommendation:

-4 thin layers of Special Green
-If more grip is needed, use something warmer.

A joke. Since Swix was poor last weekend, I started looking at some comments by Boulder in their catalog on Swix kickers. It make me think that the VR waxes might be better in drier conditions.

Last weekend a lot of people were using Start Oslo, and Rode Violet was another, but I think (guess) the glide was not as good. Blah has an uncanny ability to make good recommendations, so Oslo would be a good place to start.

After 40 k of hills on Sunday, I'm still tired.

Jay

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Blah » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:17 pm

Montana wrote:
Blah wrote:
Montana wrote:Wish I was there. Here's the Swix recs from Wednesday afternoon:
...


If I was using Swix, and putting on fluor, I would iron in FC8X and stick with that. The Swix blocks are mostly terrible and liquid waxes in a marathon are never a good idea. Basically you have rocket ships for the first 5km and once it wears off the skis become slower than if you had not applied it.

I wasn't suggesting that Swix is the way to go here. While I usually use Swix VR waxes fro grip I do not use Swix for glide. I posted the recommendations because they were up on the Swix site and they were probably not there when special green checked for the OP.

And I wasn't suggesting that you were saying that was the way to go :D I was commenting on Swix's rec, not your post. Though I would discourage using Swix above VR 50, there are better waxes at that point

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Blah » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:20 pm

MN Hoser wrote:Rode recommendation:

-4 thin layers of Special Green
-If more grip is needed, use something warmer.

A joke. Since Swix was poor last weekend, I started looking at some comments by Boulder in their catalog on Swix kickers. It make me think that the VR waxes might be better in drier conditions.

Last weekend a lot of people were using Start Oslo, and Rode Violet was another, but I think (guess) the glide was not as good. Blah has an uncanny ability to make good recommendations, so Oslo would be a good place to start.

After 40 k of hills on Sunday, I'm still tired.

Jay


Thanks Jay. Are you going to the Noque? I'm starting to get bummed watching everyone race while I just get fat. I guess there is always bike season..

If it snows significantly at 32F, like it might, then really your only option is to own a pair of zero skis...

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby MN Hoser » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:17 pm

No Noque. In fact I've never done it. I should put it on the schedule for next year. I might take a weekend off and watch Crushed Ice or head up to this little town named Hayward.

Jay

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby MN Hoser » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:41 pm

Blah wrote: ...and liquid waxes in a marathon are never a good idea. Basically you have rocket ships for the first 5km and once it wears off the skis become slower than if you had not applied it.


I haven't heard this. Mainly Swix? Zach has been bragging up the Vauhti 15.1 saying it has surprising durability.

Jay

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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Montana » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:18 pm

Looks like Swix changed there waxing suggestion somewhat. Here's the Classic recommendation:
Swix wrote:Kickwax recommendations
Binder Layer: VG35 Green Base Binder
Kicking Layer: VR50 (2-4 Layers)
Note- If more kick is needed, try VR55N, or VR62. If more glide is needed, apply one layer of VX53. If precipitation comes in the form of rain, KX40S Silver Klister covered with VR50 can be an option. If you have Zeros, I would prep these skis as well.
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Re: Noque +1C/0C/-1C

Postby Blah » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:48 pm

MN Hoser wrote:
Blah wrote: ...and liquid waxes in a marathon are never a good idea. Basically you have rocket ships for the first 5km and once it wears off the skis become slower than if you had not applied it.


I haven't heard this. Mainly Swix? Zach has been bragging up the Vauhti 15.1 saying it has surprising durability.

Jay


Yes Zach has said many good things about Vauhti liquid durability. Any alcohol based liquids like Swix Liquid or Start or Maplus or Ski- Go..have incredible glide for several km but when they wear off they can sometimes affect glide. I think it's worth it in anything from about 10km and under.
Not sure what to think of the Vauhti liquids...we ran it at Houghton on Liebsch and Brian Greggs skis and it was great at first but it wore off and when it wore off they had bad skis.


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