Fluor ban seems big deal...

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JeffOYB
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Fluor ban seems big deal...

Post by JeffOYB » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 am

It seems bigger than the waxing section. This is big news. It was a huge change in skiing. Seems bigger than racing. It was used in lots of waxes at all levels. And in racing it was huge. Is huge. The effort to remove it from racing seems likely problematic unless a cheap detector wipe or something is developed.

It kinda seems like this is coming down onto skiing from above, due to the "unrealistic so far" angle. I mean, you can't really just *say* don't use fluor without an easy test. it wd be like anti doping w/o a test. tho it can seem like testing doesn't prevent doping all that much... other than maybe raising its cost.

This seems big on both the culture side and on the maker side. They must be going nuts to find alternatives that are actually faster so that a ban happens effectively and naturally: everyone would abandon it anyway if it's slower.

apparently the makers have known this was coming for a few yrs.

Whew, if it's just a ban w/o a test will this become something like "ski doping" only it's widely available and tempting to everyone? The public feels free to judge the fancy dopers -- maybe because they have no easy access to the benefits? It's hard for regular folks to do it. But if it was EASY? Who wd do it then? Now we might see! Because doping with fluor would be so easy!

Then how will the public relate to the general ethics? Will there be accurate communication? Is it harmful for a regular person to apply a fluor top coat before going touring in really humid conditions? ...Their use is not concentrated in a location. Maybe not even involving an iron.
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Re: Fluor ban seems big deal...

Post by E365 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:37 pm

I haven’t read all the details, but does this mean fluoros will also be banned for the Birkie, since it’s an FIS Worldloppet race?

Also apply to kick waxes that contain fluoros?

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Re: Fluor ban seems big deal...

Post by jt10000 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:13 pm

JeffOYB wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 am
Whew, if it's just a ban w/o a test will this become something like "ski doping" only it's widely available and tempting to everyone? The public feels free to judge the fancy dopers -- maybe because they have no easy access to the benefits? It's hard for regular folks to do it. But if it was EASY? Who wd do it then? Now we might see! Because doping with fluor would be so easy!
Good questions. Certainly in cycling there is enough masters/amateur doping for it to be an issue, and fluoro doping is far easier than oxygen vector doping.

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Re: Fluor ban seems big deal...

Post by JeffOYB » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:54 am

Two things: Testing and a reality check.

*******

Reality check:

Do we know yet if fluor at some level is harmful? In what way? It relates to CO2 and also to toxicity, right? Both of these will need to be clearly shown to be significant rather than theoretical. Apparently, fluor is detectable at start areas of famous races. ...At what level and to what effect? We know that breathing fumes isn't good. ...For anyone at any level or for technicians working with fluor all day? Reports I've read say that it CAN build up. This suggests it's a matter of degree... Is the problem when it's in the lungs or in the air as a gas? Refrigerant is controlled -- it's a gas, I think. If there are particles on the ground, is the effect on the atmosphere or on animals?

********

Testing:

It seems like a wipe or quick test within an hour would be really helpful. But maybe it's not necessary. For a test that will take a week or so, a swab or something like that will need to be taken. Citizen racers aren't going to give up their skis to be tested before results are given. Still a delay result test might be effective deterrent. Ppl understand a delay.

But they can't just have a ban. There will need to be a test.

And it will have to be a standard that citizens can meet. All our equipment, brushes, etc., have fluor in them. How will our skis need to be handled to not be in violation? It'll have to be easy to do.

Do we throw away our tools? Hazardous waste disposal? Or out in the trash?

With bio/blood doping the tests do take awhile I guess but the average public knows if they cheat they're in trouble. The elites can get away with it. But I bet when locals know random testing is in their area it puts a damper on cheating.

(I've assisted in random testing on request from the big shots. Not fun but it was a task our race team was obliged to assist with. Our race turned out fine. But in our area a couple yrs later we had a famous Master get busted and it was very wide spread awareness afterward.)
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Re: Fluor ban seems big deal...

Post by enevala » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Chris Hecker, one of the Rex wax techs has an interesting blog post that covers this subject, particularly what it will take to "disinfect" a team's waxing setup to be compliant:
http://www.skinnyski.com/gear/display.asp?Id=47857

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Re: Fluor ban seems big deal...

Post by Loran » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:30 pm

> But they can't just have a ban. There will need to be a test.
If something else emerges as equivalent or better, the ban won't be a big deal.

They should anyway stop allowing to change skis during a race. How many, 5 ?, changes allowed during a world-cup 50km race ? That's just ridiculous.
(That also just means that after 10km most of the extra-speed is just lost.)

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