Terms when teaching skating...

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JeffOYB
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Terms when teaching skating...

Postby JeffOYB » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:56 pm

Does anyone when teaching skiing skating have a hard time telling people the name V2alternate? Open field is silly also. I've started telling people that it is the waltz. They will kind of accept V1 but even that is rather lame when you think of it. I might prefer silly skateboarder move names
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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:33 am

JeffOYB wrote:Does anyone when teaching skiing skating have a hard time telling people the name V2alternate? Open field is silly also. I've started telling people that it is the waltz. They will kind of accept V1 but even that is rather lame when you think of it. I might prefer silly skateboarder move names

In English I use Diagonal Skate, Offset, One Skate, Two Skate and Free Skate for the five gears in skate skiing. In Swedish we just number them 1-5, so we say First Gear about Diagonal Skate, Second Gear about Offset, and so on.

What does "the waltz" look like, Jeff?

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby jt10000 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:00 am

JeffOYB wrote:Does anyone when teaching skiing skating have a hard time telling people the name V2alternate? Open field is silly also. I've started telling people that it is the waltz. They will kind of accept V1 but even that is rather lame when you think of it. I might prefer silly skateboarder move names


Yes.

That makes sense. Make up yet another term, so if they talk about it with other people, or look around the web or in books, they will be more confused.

Well done.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby TooHeavy » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:41 am

You teaching skating in that bush ?
Offset ,V1, V2 the rest is not used or seldom used.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Neuro » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:02 am

FWIW in Norway offset is called padling (paddling) as it sort of reminds one of paddling (with a paddle from boat or board), V1 is 'enkeldans' (single dance), V2 is dobbeldans (double dance), free skating is frikjøring (free riding). The slowest gear is called 'kjerringdans' (old woman dance ;) ), or 'glidende fiskebein' (gliding fish bone). By the way, the use of the word 'dance' comes from saying that the best skiers are virtual dancers on skis. Ie. the highest accolade a skier gets by pundits. (Biathlete Lars Berger who I've heard it used most about)

But Magnus' English terms sound good. Maybe should be implemented as there seems to be some confusion what is what and V1 etc not entirely intuitive. Rememeber spoken language is always the right one before written so if many start using a word for something, that will be come the norm in the end.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Magnus Johansson » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:32 am

Neuro wrote:FWIW in Norway offset is called padling (paddling) as it sort of reminds one of paddling (with a paddle from boat or board), V1 is 'enkeldans' (single dance), V2 is dobbeldans (double dance), free skating is frikjøring (free riding). The slowest gear is called 'kjerringdans' (old woman dance ;) ), or 'glidende fiskebein' (gliding fish bone). By the way, the use of the word 'dance' comes from saying that the best skiers are virtual dancers on skis. Ie. the highest accolade a skier gets by pundits. (Biathlete Lars Berger who I've heard it used most about)

As with a lot of Norwegian terms, Swedes find them quite funny, but these skate skiing terms are also poetic and emphasize the proximity between dance and skate skiing. "Kjerringdans" is also called "Granny Skate" in English. I have plans on describing the rythmical aspect of cross-country skiing. One often hears that it is important with a rythmical skiing technique but seldomly it is explained in more detail.

Neuro wrote:But Magnus' English terms sound good. Maybe should be implemented as there seems to be some confusion what is what and V1 etc not entirely intuitive. Rememeber spoken language is always the right one before written so if many start using a word for something, that will be come the norm in the end.

My terms are really Canadian terms, I believe, and I think they are better than the V terms.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby jt10000 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:58 am

Magnus Johansson wrote:"Kjerringdans" is also called "Granny Skate" in English.
Where I am, northeastern US, the diagonal skate has also been called "coach's skate." But that's not a standard term.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby JeffOYB » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:03 pm

"V" seems w/o content so best to throw it away. ...Is V a shorter way to say "skate"? I mean, they're both one syllable but V is fewer letters. Ha!

Any term that learners like or resonate with or somewhat makes sense should be preferred over terms that have no connection to easily remembered reality.

So which one is the double-dance? I like it but can't intuitively determine or remember if it means 2 skates for each cycle of poling or 2 polings for each cycle of skating.

When the non-US world says V1 and V2, what do they mean? What part of one or two in the skating moves is intuitively obvious to learners so that they will remember the terms and what they go with?

It's hard to keep track. Is the whole world in agreement on V2? Is that the move where one double poles with every skate? I kind of think not. I'm guessing it's where one skates twice for each poling. Terminology needs a base to build from. If there is no obvious base then the code is without meaning and can't be remembered using reason as an aide.

I call the Waltz what US skiers used to call the Open Field or V2Alternate -- poling on alternating skates rather than on every skate. I call it the Waltz because that is a term that every person knows. And it is simple. And this skate move is what every person naturally does when they first try to skate w/o help. And it is the most dance-like of the techniques. And every time I say it and demonstrate it every student says "Oh yeah, nice." ...V1 and V2 have meant nothing to any student yet and I doubt either have stuck with any of them. ...Tho once I show them the V1 (US) or Offset (boring) they remember it. I tell them this is what you need to ski up any hill and you can also use it to go fast on the flats. They get it and like it.

Waltz is a nice word. Offset is a bad word. I want to help skating become popular. Good words will help.
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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby jt10000 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:02 pm

JeffOYB wrote:What part of one or two in the skating moves is intuitively obvious to learners so that they will remember the terms and what they go with?
You're right. "Waltz" is so intuitive. Well done.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:44 am

JeffOYB wrote:So which one is the double-dance? I like it but can't intuitively determine or remember if it means 2 skates for each cycle of poling or 2 polings for each cycle of skating.

Double-dance is the same as One Skate, and means poling on every stride.

JeffOYB wrote:When the non-US world says V1 and V2, what do they mean? What part of one or two in the skating moves is intuitively obvious to learners so that they will remember the terms and what they go with?

We do not say V1 and V2 except for the German missiles during World War 2.

JeffOYB wrote:Terminology needs a base to build from. If there is no obvious base then the code is without meaning and can't be remembered using reason as an aide.

I find the simple numbering of the gears best. It explains the relations between them.

JeffOYB wrote:I call the Waltz what US skiers used to call the Open Field or V2Alternate ...

OK. V2 Alternate is Two Skate is Fourth Gear.

JeffOYB wrote:Waltz is a nice word. Offset is a bad word. I want to help skating become popular. Good words will help.

Waltz is a nice word but the Fourth Gear is actually a movement in sextuple meter and not triple meter like a waltz. I don't think Offset is a bad word since it refers to the offset poling of the Second Gear, with one pole planted further ahead of the other.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Neuro » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:55 am

I think waltz is not such a known word. I just know it's an old type of dance, that's about it. I have no idea about the movements involved, and I guess today's generation knows it even less.

The Canadians seems to have nailed the terms really, Diagonal Skate, Offset, One Skate, Two Skate and Free Skate.

..except maybe 'diagonal skate' which is confusing as everyone knows skating is something diagonal, isn't it..

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:48 am

Neuro wrote:The Canadians seems to have nailed the terms really, Diagonal Skate, Offset, One Skate, Two Skate and Free Skate.

..except maybe 'diagonal skate' which is confusing as everyone knows skating is something diagonal, isn't it..

"Diagonal" refers to the similarity with diagonal striding in the classic style.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Mark M » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:05 pm

Yet another set of terms, in Finland the 4 terms used for most common variants are Mogren (V1), Wassberg (V2), "kuokka" (hoe) for uphill V1 and poleless skiing for skating without poles.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:57 pm

Mark M wrote:Yet another set of terms, in Finland the 4 terms used for most common variants are Mogren (V1), Wassberg (V2), "kuokka" (hoe) for uphill V1 and poleless skiing for skating without poles.

Kuokka, Wassberg and Mogren are Gear 2, 3 and 4 respectively, i.e. Offset, One Skate and Two Skate. Sami Jauhojärvi demonstrates them here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rDfFFqUvnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAuFEPAnUTg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKs35txxsqY

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby JeffOYB » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:52 pm

i still don't think offset is a 'selling' term, but it's functional. we need appeal in addition to function.

people might not really know the waltz or anything technical in terms of dance or music but when they hear it i think it seems nice and says 'dance' and 'common dance' and the Gear 4 is the danciest and also the most natural of moves. so it's both common and a bit flattering. 'ah, i'm dancing!'

'Gear' seems like a bad term for a rhythmic human motion. ...you'd never hear it in alpine skiing or snowboarding. turning a human motion into a machine term seems like bad PR

snow/skateboarding comes up with fun names even if they're kinda nonsense. at least they appeal and people like saying them. "Ollie"
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