Terms when teaching skating...

Stuff that doesnt fit anywhere else.

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jt10000
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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby jt10000 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:47 pm

Hmm, when I think waltz I think "old-fashioned." Just sayin'.

And Jeff you haven't explained how waltz is "intuitively obvious to learners," which is a criterion you mentioned earlier. How is it intuitively obvious?


EDITED TO ADD the following, from Wikipedia, which makes me laugh a bit:

"Shocking many when it was first introduced,[9] the waltz became fashionable in Vienna around the 1780s, spreading to many other countries in the years to follow. According to contemporary singer Michael Kelly, it reached England in 1791,.[10] During the Napoleonic Wars, infantry soldiers of the King's German Legion introduced the dance to the people of Bexhill, Sussex from 1804.[11]

It became fashionable in Britain during the Regency period, having been made respectable by the endorsement of Dorothea Lieven, wife of the Russian ambassador.[12] Diarist Thomas Raikes later recounted that "No event ever produced so great a sensation in English society as the introduction of the waltz in 1813."[13] In the same year, a sardonic tribute to the dance by Lord Byron was anonymously published (written the previous autumn).[14][15] Influential dance master and author of instruction manuals, Thomas Wilson published A Description of the Correct Method of Waltzing in 1816.[16] Almack's, the most exclusive club in London, permitted the waltz though the entry in the Oxford English Dictionary shows that it was considered "riotous and indecent" as late as 1825. Ann Bronte in 'The Tenant of Wildfell Hall' has a scene set in 1827 where the local vicar Reverend Milward tolerates quadrilles and country dances but intervenes decisively when a waltz is called for declaring."No, no, I don't allow that! Come, it's time to be going home".[17]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waltz
Last edited by jt10000 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Magnus Johansson
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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:44 am

JeffOYB wrote:i still don't think offset is a 'selling' term, but it's functional. we need appeal in addition to function.

people might not really know the waltz or anything technical in terms of dance or music but when they hear it i think it seems nice and says 'dance' and 'common dance' and the Gear 4 is the danciest and also the most natural of moves. so it's both common and a bit flattering. 'ah, i'm dancing!'

'Gear' seems like a bad term for a rhythmic human motion. ...you'd never hear it in alpine skiing or snowboarding. turning a human motion into a machine term seems like bad PR

snow/skateboarding comes up with fun names even if they're kinda nonsense. at least they appeal and people like saying them. "Ollie"

Terms shall not be selling but descriptive.

It really makes me wonder when you, Jeff, say "when they hear it I think it seems nice". What kind of argument is that? Gear 4 looks very good but if it is the most natural I really don't know. Gear 1 and 2 are the oldest in the development of competitive skate skiing so they are closer to be labeled most natural, I believe.

"Gear" is actually a very good term since it describes the different techniques' ability to create power and speed.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Neuro » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:50 am

Gear is of course the best description what the different styles are all about, but for naming each one it's not ideal IMO. Imagine if they just used numbers for the different techniques in classic striding. I think good, obvious descriptive terms are best. "Kick double pole" is a good example.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:57 pm

Neuro wrote:Gear is of course the best description what the different styles are all about, but for naming each one it's not ideal IMO. Imagine if they just used numbers for the different techniques in classic striding. I think good, obvious descriptive terms are best. "Kick double pole" is a good example.

Here in Sweden there actually are some educators, Mattias Svahn among them, that use numbering also in the classic style: Gear 1 is Herringbone; Gear 2 is Diagonal Stride; Gear 3 is Kick Double Poling; Gear 4 is Double Poling. The traditional Swedish terms are however still more used: Saxning, Diagonalgång (or Diagonalåkning), Dubbelstakning med frånskjut; Dubbelstakning.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby Neuro » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:12 am

One thing that might explain the offset technique is "push-pull" in that one arm is felt to be pulling in front and the other pushing at the back.

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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby JeffOYB » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:45 am

Everything is always either selling good or bad. Our terms significantly affect our popularity.

If our technique names use machine terms then we will attract machine type people. Probably there are fewer of those than normal people.

Look to other sports and see how they name their moves.

The two-step is a well-known popular dance where the name is only slightly descriptive. So it's OK to have a name that is only somewhat descriptive but ideally it would sound fun. Music-dancing is so immediately fun that the names might only be incidental.

XC skiing might be in a phase where it's less popular. If we can help it with our terms, we should consider it.

Well, whatever works for people. Yeah, nations/languages should probably all get on the same page.

I just saw "V2Alternate" in a how-to XC ski book. ...I question the machine-type acronym-ish terms.

It's hilarious that our V2 is V1 in other countries.
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Re: Terms when teaching skating...

Postby jt10000 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:40 am

JeffOYB wrote:It's hilarious that our V2 is V1 in other countries.

What's really funny is that we've seen a set of widely used terms with "dance" in them in this thread (in Norway: paddle dance, double dance, single dance) and yet you are still suggesting a different dance word that suits your fancy. And is technically wrong on timing (as Magnus pointed out). And projects a sense of "old-fashioned" as Neuro and I have both pointed out.

That's really funny.

While they didn't catch on in the US or Canada, the Norwegian dance terms were used in English in the best book (for awhile) in English on skate technique - Ski Skating With Champions: How to Ski With Least Energy by Einar Svensson.

So if you're really into dancing terms, why not use what already exists?

Oh, and I see Svensson's book on your own website, Jeff.
http://outyourbackdoor.com/store/ski/sk ... nsson.html

So you've presumably known about the dance terms but rather than building a unified ski "culture" (something you talk about) you want to make up your own terms?

That's hilarious.


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