Training philosophy

Stuff that doesnt fit anywhere else.

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skiffrace
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby skiffrace » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:49 am

MN Hoser wrote:
skiffrace wrote:
7 reps is still heavy lifting. Since we are primarily endurance athletes, our bodies are more responsive to lighter weights and more reps - 12 to 15 reps being the optimum.

This doesn't sound correct.


Depends. If you are a dedicated racer, then more reps and lighter weights should work better.
OTOH if you are a fitness enthusiast,(who even occasionally races), 12 to 15 reps per set are a good starting point for strength development, muscle maintenance and general fitness.

Neuro wrote:Yes but using light weights like I said. I could much more, both weight and sets.

If I understand correctly, you do only 7 reps per set, but with weight light enough you could still do more reps easily.
If so, it's not an efficient way to strength train.
When doing only 7 reps per set, weight should be heavy enough so you cannot do more.
Ability to do more reps comes into play when you do lots of reps per set (say 30+)
However, 30+ reps per set is NOT strength training. It's endurance training, using weight (or sometimes bodyweight) as the resistance.
It's often implemented as circuit training, where you move from station to station, with little rest between stations.
Many endurance athletes cross-train using circuit-training.

Neuro wrote:When the latest Swix 3.0 pole was launched now, they said poles from not long ago would literally be bent by today's skiers, the power difference from skiers before to now is apparently huge.

Only if they pulled at the ends of the pole while holding its middle against their knee :D

Furthermore...Sundby's muscle is nothing to write home about.
Here are endurance athletes with muscle:
Image

Or here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11YH_7Esfjc

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Neuro
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Neuro » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:16 am

Exactly, muscle mass not necessarily hindering endurance performance.
skiffrace wrote:If I understand correctly, you do only 7 reps per set, but with weight light enough you could still do more reps easily.
If so, it's not an efficient way to strength train.
When doing only 7 reps per set, weight should be heavy enough so you cannot do more.

No, but it's been surprisingly effective like I said. Of course weights are not too light, I could maybe do 10-12 max. I think what comes into play is the recovery and muscle mass build is better than being on the limit and wearing out the muscle, just the same principle as with moderate cardio.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Michael_A » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:11 am

Rowing vs Skiing ... there is little penalty for extra mass when you are rowing, yes? That's why they are so much bigger. If you had to row up hills, your ideal body type would be quite different.

Running/Roller Skiing vs Biking ... my understanding is that as running and roller skiing are weight bearing, they are more effective for ski training than bike riding. Have read (don't remember where) you need to spend a lot more time on a bike to get the same benefits.

There are a lot of good books out there on training, how much, why, etc ... my two favorites as they relate to skiing are "Fast After Fifty" (Joe Friel) and "Training for the New Alpinism (Steve House and Scott Johnston, a ski coach).

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skiffrace
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby skiffrace » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:43 am

Michael - thanks for the "Fast after fifty" recommendation. I read the snippets on Amazon - it looks like a well-researched, well-documented book. I'm going to buy it.

Michael_A wrote:there is little penalty for extra mass when you are rowing, yes?

You are on the right track. While there is some penalty for extra weight in rowing, it is far less than in running, x-country skiing or cycling.
The extra weight of rower sinks the boat more => wetted surface area of the boat is increased => frictional drag resistance is increased
That's why elite rowers typically weigh no more than 200 - 220 lbs (90 to 100kgs)

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby liège » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:40 am

Coaches even talk openly on TV about it and I've wondered how wise it is, but there's been lot of talk how Norway's dominance last years hasn't been good and how it benefits us in the long term if everybody is more close, so I guess there's been a mood to share more. ... With Russian skiers so strong nowadays, it seems they have changed their typical overtraining that plagued them before (again according to Torgeir Bjørn), so maybe they were listening.


Yes to this: Norway (especially) knows that if the sport is dominated only by Norway, the viewing market will dissolve, and it takes a lot of money to run the World Cup. So they are very open about how they train.

Russia has brought in a German coach, Markus Kramer, and he's managed to make some changes to how athletes in his group are training. So you may be correct in that they're less over-trained this year than in the past.

... I heard Stina Nilsson's coach say she hadn't done a single speed run for months, it's all been slow.


I'm guessing that this may be true; she apparently doesn't do a lot of volume (compared to some of her competitors), but she does race a lot. From Otepää weekend until the Quebec City races, the longest break between World Cup races was five days, so that doesn't leave much room for intervals.

Since we are primarily endurance athletes, our bodies are more responsive to lighter weights and more reps - 12 to 15 reps being the optimum.


Wrong or right, most of the World Cup athletes are leaning more toward heavier weights with fewer reps. I saw the French team bench-pressing in Lillehammer; Richard Jouve did 3 X 110kg easily, and Maurice Manificat did 2 X 95kg. Baptiste Gros can allegedly bench 130kg.

https://ussa-my.sharepoint.com/personal ... b4b6&rev=1

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby MN Hoser » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:32 pm

Nice ppt.

Jay

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby dcpattie » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:02 pm

I don't think there is ONE way to train so the different philosophy's are good to think through.

Before I started rowing at age 19, I was really into weightlifting. I could bench press 340lbs (154kg) but my endurance was underdeveloped. However, during my first ergometer test I was able to row 1k in under 3 minutes but could not finish a 2k test. Over the years I improved my rowing technique, became much more aerobically fit, lost weight, and finished several 2k tests...but I could never get back to a sub 3-minute 1k time on the ergometer. That raw power was gone.
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Neuro
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Neuro » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:12 am

Stina Nilsson: I'm continuing the successful recipe I found last year: I train hard, but not too hard. I keep it at a low intensity so I don't have to stop and rest too often. This works well.

I've also added upper body muscle strength, mostly to avoid injuries.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Magnus Johansson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:38 am

Neuro wrote:Stina Nilsson: I'm continuing the successful recipe I found last year: I train hard, but not too hard. I keep it at a low intensity so I don't have to stop and rest too often.

A training that is both hard and low intensity seems contradictory. What does she mean, really?

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Neuro
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Neuro » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:40 pm

She means a lot.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby dcpattie » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:59 pm

I think its a lot of work at 130 bpm. For runners this is often coined as "junk miles"; however, I think you can do a lot more in XC skiing at 130 bpm.
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby MN Hoser » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:25 pm

I only seem to get one week a summer where I'm putting in 20 or 25 hours of training. The surprising thing is that I'm really flying at the end of the week (most times). You'd (well I'd) think I'd be tired and slow after that many hours, but I've had some very fast rides at weeks end. The problem is I can't keep going or training more. I need a break and one year I dug a hole when I didn't take enough of a break. So I do believe there is something to volume, and I try to get it in if my body is willing. If you can get the body to a point of handling more volume weekly and some big weeks more often, yes, I think that really makes you fast.

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Neuro
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Neuro » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:59 am

Not that I'm a reference for anything, but interesting experience after the snow came here where I started very easy and could feel the shape getting better every trip, then the last trip before the forecasted snow melt I really overdid it skiing really fast for too long which after messed me up and now I even have to take it easy in the gym as I've been knackered for weeks. The gym bit is especially interesting as that's such a known reference as I do it the whole year and know exactly where I stand. Of course I might have been hit with a bug that didn't spring out but caused me to be so weak, but it would be some coincidence.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Run&Ski » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:36 pm

There is a lot of academic research on cardio-vascular training available on-line. But there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" program. In fact, training is quite the opposite. What might work for a 20 year old World Cup racer will have nothing in common with a program for a 40 or 50 year old recreational skier/club racer. Quite often, what worked even 4-5 years ago may no longer work for you because of age or your level of conditioning to start. So we have to consider many factors - age, current level of conditioning, type of racing, recovery levels etc - when we tailor our conditioning program year by year.

I've coached and competed in running for decades and I highly recommend keeping stats on your heart rate, particularly resting heart rate, if you want to get the most out of your training. After all, it will tell you when to rest and when to train. Nothing is worse for your body than to train when you haven't recovered to some degree from your previous session.

So when someone says this is the magic pill, those programs, if you can call them one, are flavours of the month and a sign that he or she does not know what they are talking about.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Pat » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:12 am

Looking for some further comments on the Concept 2 Skierg. If I can't get outside to do some double pole work (either roller ski or snow ski), I'll do my indoor workout using surgical tubing to simulate the double pole work. Works fine for the strength side of things but doesn't exactly get me gassed from an aerobic point of view. I do have other gear that I have adapted to do a variety of "Nordic Like stuff" but mostly just works the technique and doesn't get me too far into the aerobic/anaerobic world. I can only pound away running hard one day a week or else I put too much strain on my 61 year old knees. So I have read what Dave and a few others have commented on about their Skierg use, and certainly most of the online reviews are very favorable. Guess I'm just looking to hear from you folks who have used this equipment any further comments and also any detriments like beating up your knees of any other high use body parts....

As always thanks for the advice and stay healthy my Friends.

Pat


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