Training philosophy

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skiffrace
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Re: Training philosophy

Postby skiffrace » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:01 pm

Neuro wrote:I heard Stina Nilsson's coach say she hadn't done a single speed run for months

Maybe the coach is telling the truth, maybe he's not, same for the alleged training methods officially "revealed" by other top athletes.

Neuro wrote:Normally I treat every run as interval training

If you train 2-3x per week, that's a great way to train, and a very efficient method to get in a good shape and at the same time, "have a life".
2 high-intensity sessions + 1 LSD session per week will probably put an amateur athlete in 95% best possible shape, in moderate amount of time.
Exception would be very long distances (marathon and longer) which require more mileage base.

Neuro wrote:but feel the gains are marginal

Chances are you reached your genetically predetermined potential, and any subsequent (marginal) gains will come a the cost of huge amount of work.
When I was competitive rower, we did a lot of strength training. I reached my 1 rep max peak in my early 20s.
Since then, I tried to "improve it" (why, I ask myself now :-)
I tried all kinds of "bleeding edge" strength training methodologies: Super-Slow, Dynamic Effort, Super Sets, Isometric Training etc. etc.
The bad news is that my 1 rep max did not budge - I reached my genetic limit.
The good new is that now, 30 years later, my 1 rep max decreased little.
This is thanks to the fact that I continue to strength train, couple of times/week, every week.
I found that the specific training method is unimportant, as long as I put a good effort in.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby MN Hoser » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:09 am

I've been trying to follow an approach by Stephen Seiler.

http://www.fftri.com/files/pdf/Seiler%2 ... 202010.pdf

I haven't read this paper, but I've heard his talks and originally read is site MAPP which can be found on the way back machine. I put up the paper just to give a thread for people to follow. So this describes the training part, but strength or strength to weight ratio, balance and technique are also important.

If anyone gives a rats ass, my training was up to 500 hrs a number of years ago, dropped to around 400, then 380 for a few years, and back to 400 in 2015. I haven't added up last year, but I was at 290 in Oct (took March off). Maybe I'll add it up now. Edit: 345 hrs for 2016.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Neuro » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:40 am

So you've been doing the 80% low intensity 20% high those years, Jay? Does it work the best you think? Did you change from another regime before and know the difference?

skiffrace wrote:
Neuro wrote:I heard Stina Nilsson's coach say she hadn't done a single speed run for months

Maybe the coach is telling the truth, maybe he's not, same for the alleged training methods officially "revealed" by other top athletes.

Coaches are surprisingly open about it, and most info comes via TV pundit Torgeir Bjørn, who is a former coach (Bjørndalen etc) and an XC encyclopedia so can't really be fooled.

Coaches even talk openly on TV about it and I've wondered how wise it is, but there's been lot of talk how Norway's dominance last years hasn't been good and how it benefits us in the long term if everybody is more close, so I guess there's been a mood to share more. Nilsson's coach is also Norwegian (father of Emil Iversen). With Russian skiers so strong nowadays, it seems they have changed their typical overtraining that plagued them before (again according to Torgeir Bjørn), so maybe they were listening.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby skiffrace » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:10 am

Neuro wrote:it seems they have changed their typical overtraining

Over-training is an interesting topic. You mentioned Northug over-training this season.
I know an interesting case from the world of rowing, which will also play on your interest in lower intensity work.
Rowing race is 2K, and lasts ~6 to ~8 minutes, depending on type of boat.
To prepare, most of the crews did several months of agonizing interval training, with typical intervals being 2 to 5 minutes of work followed by 1 to 3 minutes of rest. The crews improved their fitness for the race, but during the winter dead season they found their racing speed/fitness dropped to the baseline.
Then someone tried another approach. Instead of 3 to 5 minute lung-collapsing intervals, they increased to 15-20 minutes. While still harder than LSD, they became easier to train, and easier to recover. The rowers still improved, and their bodies were not as exhausted.
The biggest surprise came last. The rowers using the long intervals *retained* their previous season fitness. Instead of starting from the baseline, they started from a higher level. They improved year/over year.
If you indeed treat every workout as high intensity, interval training (and train more than 2-3x/week), you may be permanently overtrained, and switching to LSD may indeed improve your fitness, as long as you have the time.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby skiffrace » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:24 am

One more over-training use case.
I am all-over-the-place (map) in the last year, which means my training has not been consistent, or in other words, sometimes I train, and sometimes I don't.
I spent the last 2 months in Tenerife. Prior to Tenerife, I had access to a good gym in Gdynia, where I did a lot of strength/upper body work.
In Tenerife, all I did was some stair running (try it if you can - amazingly hard workout, far more effective than than running)
No strength, no upper-body work. Upon the return to Poland, I went to gym again, expecting to be as weak as a kitten.
Big surprise - something opposite happened! I became STRONGER, and improved (a little) in most of my lifts!
So, clearly, I was over-trained prior to Tenerife trip, and the long rest made my body stronger.
According to research, we need more rest as we grow older, so perhaps if I were in my 20s, it would not work this way.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby MN Hoser » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:59 pm

No, I would say I'm not following the 80/20 program. I'm lazy during the summer and almost exclusively go easy and moderate. The hard thing it to pull back the moderate to easy (follow the HR monitor). In the fall is generally when I start doing intervals (usually 7-10 min intervals). In a good year I'm doing 3 or 4x7-10 min intervals in July (really good year), or September (poor year), and the goal is twice a week. If you add it up, I'm sure that doesn't come up to 20%.

At my level, just showing up for workouts is half the battle. In fact, I'm kind of calling this my last hurrah year. It's easy to train with good snow, but when you put in a good year and then the snow sucks in November to mid-Jan, it's hard. Lots of driving to get on snow during the winter and that's getting old.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Neuro » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:55 am

Sad to hear that, climate change taking its toll. I hear similar stories here in Norway too. Hopefully rollerskiing will become more organized in the future to take over some even if it will never be the same of course.

@Skiffrace: Similar story from the gym here. I found myself skipping more and more going when the weights went up since it became a painful chore, so gave up trying to be pumped and changed to 2 sets of 7 reps with lighter weights that just feels satisfyingly heavy to lift in order to keep a regime going, but surprisingly my strength soon went up to before when I was 3 x 7 and max weight. Of course the added benefit is overall more power since I don't skip training much any more, and there's also less risk of injury of course.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby skiffrace » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:42 am

neuro wrote:2 sets of 7 reps

7 reps is still heavy lifting. Since we are primarily endurance athletes, our bodies are more responsive to lighter weights and more reps - 12 to 15 reps being the optimum.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby MN Hoser » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:40 pm

Just to keep the thread going...my week so far:

Mon 3.13 mi run, 23:44, also some weight lifting
Tue 20.09 ride, 1:22 (it's still pretty cold and windy, so I'm riding a mt bike on the road)
Wed 17.72 ride, 1:15
Thr off (drank a beer with people from work), well, I did some weight lifting, but I don't consider that a workout
Fri 17.72 ride, 1:18 (I did the exact same ride as Wed but on a 29" mt bike--strong winds)
Sat 4.12 mi run, 31:09, 7.09 mi double pole, 52:41

After drinking a beer tonight, I signed up for the Chequamegon. This is a large mt bike race (40 mile) on parts of the Birkie Trail. It's been years since I've done this race, so I might regret this decision later. It's quite strange that there are spots still open since this used to fill the day it opened. They also used to hold a lottery for spots, so I'm not sure why spots are open. I went and photographed the event last year, and it seemed....like a smaller race? More low key.

Jay

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby davidb » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:37 pm

I'm really not very good at philosophy, but could you guys comment on running vs mt.bike riding as training for skiing?

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:25 am

davidb wrote:I'm really not very good at philosophy, but could you guys comment on running vs mt.bike riding as training for skiing?

They are both good, but roller skiing is better.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Mark M » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:20 am

skiffrace wrote:
neuro wrote:2 sets of 7 reps

7 reps is still heavy lifting. Since we are primarily endurance athletes, our bodies are more responsive to lighter weights and more reps - 12 to 15 reps being the optimum.

This doesn't sound correct. During the summer pros are currently training with high reps and during race season it is common to do once a week 1-3 rep on bench and squats to keep the power levels high. With proper warm-ups of course.

For non-competitive skier like myself just about any weight training once or twice a week is good but yet it makes sense to have some periodization.

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby MN Hoser » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:53 am

davidb wrote:I'm really not very good at philosophy, but could you guys comment on running vs mt.bike riding as training for skiing?


For me, it's difficult to run easy, meaning my runs always end up being mid-level workouts. It's somewhat similar on the mt bike. I can't climb a hill without running up my heart rate. So I think both are a good way to get in a hard workout, if you're wanting one.

I think running lends itself well to classic skiing and mt biking to skate skiing. At a top level, it seems many more skiers are runners rather than bikers (are there top level skiers that bike much?), but some of the better skiers in the Midwest are big mt bikers, so I don't think it matters a lot. (Fun may be more important.)

Jay

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:22 am

MN Hoser wrote:At a top level, it seems many more skiers are runners rather than bikers (are there top level skiers that bike much?)

Emelie Öhrstig, World Champion in cross-country skiing in 2005, was also a world elite cyclist, both in road racing and mountain bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENYRCPAWp6U

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Re: Training philosophy

Postby Neuro » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:59 am

skiffrace wrote:
neuro wrote:2 sets of 7 reps

7 reps is still heavy lifting. Since we are primarily endurance athletes, our bodies are more responsive to lighter weights and more reps - 12 to 15 reps being the optimum.

Yes but using light weights like I said. I could much more, both weight and sets.

Back to general XC WC training philosophy, general muscle mass and especially upper body strength is said to be the latest thing, not just for sprints. When the latest Swix 3.0 pole was launched now, they said poles from not long ago would literally be bent by today's skiers, the power difference from skiers before to now is apparently huge.

Look at the top skiers of today:
Image
Image


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