Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

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JeffOYB
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Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby JeffOYB » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:24 pm

Neuro asked about it as an aside in the Rollerski section but I thought I'd bring out in its own thread.

I suppose V2 is indeed the hardest move but it is also very reasonable to master then once you have it and have acclimated to it it then feels rock solid and pretty easy. Whattaya think?

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Here's mostly what I posted about it...

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I find that V2 is only hard when I'm doing it wrong. :)

My view is that it is NOT longer glide on each side. It's often a move used on a slight uphill. (Can be done w fairly quick tempo.)

If you're tipping to the outside, try weighting your big toe -- even just visualizing this.

I found that when I changed to carbon poles it was night and day. Also changing to slightly shorter poles really helped.

A big aspect of this move is that the upper body action is LESS. Just do a crunch and short skate on each side. Don't throw the arms back hardly at all. High flared elbows and flicky hands might help. Go for total bone-on-bone w legs and posture. (It can be slightly tricky feely the bone-on-bone for this move but it's there.)

You want this to be a stable restful move that prevents bogdown. It's not harder than the others.

Extend from there if you feel like it. But you'd never want to over-glide, over-stride -- as with any move. Unless you're just having fun and want to work more. :) I'm pretty sure the mantra is "you're slowing when you're gliding." Then you have to re-accelerate. If skis are gliding fast just enjoy that but keep same tempo that fits with having your body always moving. Maybe exert less if glide is better. Or increase tempo.

It's a light, easy, minimalist move. ...Or at least you can start with that. ...And take that approach quite far. Extend from there whenever you feel rock solid doing so.

I've also greatly benefited by dryland for V2. Just hop back and forth and do the arm action. Relax, look up. It's a slightly unnatural rhythm in a way but one that is also readily trainable.

Your arm action is just helping each leg to not bog down on an uphill. ...But not such a steep uphill that you want to switch to V1. Or you just want a change of motion.

Whattaya think?
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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:10 am

I think One-skate is the hardest skate skiing technique to learn, especially on roller skis, but once the movement density of it is mastered it is used a lot. Stina Nilsson thinks Two-skate is the most difficult to master. Here she is teaching a beginner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgKHmhCI9nM

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Neuro » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:54 am

Yeah for me it's definitely the most difficult. I could pretty much do V1 and offset straight away, but still not 100% with V2. It's the balance aspect of it that needs familiarization.

With V1 and offset, it's basically just 'wagging' and the weight is (comfortingly) always coming back to the other side, but with V2 one has to balance on one ski for a while and that takes some getting used to, especially on flats and if the conditions are not ideal.

It has to be said that the struggle is partly due to most of my skiing is done on rollerskis where the risk of tipping over the outside edge is just too great and not worth the risk, and on snow, the tracks I go to are often too icy, too snowed down, or just too trampled up and with classic tracks to give good enough grip to get good V2 balance practice.

But balance issues with this style is common. Even world cup skiiers get trouble with their shins (chronic inflammation of the muscle), from struggling with the balance. Interestingly, there is a big difference in skis, and I know of at least one skier who had success in changing to a type that has double grooves (Rossignol). Some skiers do a lot of balance exercises to help with the technique. Sundby for example, is known for his good balance.

But I'm getting the hang of it now. Like Jeff says, it helps to keep the arm movement down to get the frequency up and help with the balance.

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby JeffOYB » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:27 am

So it is the hardest but it also seems like there are a few good tricks to becoming stable with it. The balance is the big thing. The main trouble w the balance is probably that it's unnatural to have that particular syncopated rhythm on each side. The up-down of the arms on each side. So the trick is to maximize stability w that motion.

It seems that both xc skiing and cx biking might have a similar mantra (or maybe it's just cx biking): slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

So I'd advise first to reduce and simplify the motion. Do it on dry land stepping naturally from side to side. No jumping. Step only a shoulder-width apart. Back and forth. Do the V2/one-skate arm motion very minimally. Bend the knee with each step only minimally as well, only as much as you need to step from side to side. Start there. Then build as you please.

Each of the phases in progress in learning V2 needs to be built around solidifying stability.

We want to preserve a bone-on-bone type of posture when doing the motion more vigorously and especially when on rollerskis or skis. The leg is slightly flexed or even straightish and it's straight down below the hip. ...But is it ever otherwise? Maybe 'bone on bone' is just a cue for visualization. Functionally it's part of, or even a RESULT of other things. We also need to find and relax with the "hang time" aspect of the move. This seems likely even more impt than the bone-on-bone stuff. It's prior to it. But it all goes together. You can think of them separately briefly as you practice but very soon you'll feel it as one thing and stop thinking about the separate parts and just look down the trail and GO!

Hang-time means the finished leg that has just kicked works as an outrigger -- it floats off to the side like a balancing pole. Hang-time also uses the finished arms as outriggers and balancing poles. So we have 3 balancing poles like a tightrope walker might enjoy. All these create stability!

Here's where the "elbows out" posture does its job: the arms only briefly act as straight outriggers, then they immediately begin moving and recovering. This could hurt stability but if the elbows are flared out they preserve some of the tightrope walker balance pole aspect. Lifted, flared elbows help!

The doublepole aspect is interesting: you don't really have to crunch the torso much even as you work the arms more. The thing to emphasize is deepening the knee flex. A more powerful torso-drop in V2 really seems to be mostly more knee flex even as the torso does tilt. So that your torso isn't flexing much and CoG isn't moving much. This helps with stability. You can amp it up but you don't have to.

If you're tipping to the outside, try stepping down with your glide foot further out to the side. When we're tired and lazy we put the foot down too soon, we fall off the skating foot too soon and then we tip over to the outside as we keep pushing. So kick more and kick your torso over to the side further before putting your foot down to glide.

All this stuff can be easily practiced on dry land with zero jumping around. Very calm stepping from side to side with stability at each point!

Good luck!
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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:32 am

Neuro wrote:With V1 and offset

Just to make things clear: V1 and Offset are the same thing. See http://crosscountryskitechnique.com/int ... enclature/

Neuro wrote:Sundby for example, is known for his good balance.

Yes, Martin Johnsrud Sundby is an excellent skate skier and worth studying.

Neuro wrote:But I'm getting the hang of it now. Like Jeff says, it helps to keep the arm movement down to get the frequency up and help with the balance.

Yes, I wonder if Stina Nilsson thinks Two Skate is harder than One Skate because of the less balance support from the poles.

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Neuro » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:20 pm

Magnus Johansson wrote:
Neuro wrote:With V1 and offset

Just to make things clear: V1 and Offset are the same thing. See http://crosscountryskitechnique.com/int ... menclature

Argh, I always get confused with these names. But here it says V2 alternate? Is this thread about V2 or V2 alternate?

But I think I will follow your example and use the more intuitive Canadian terms from now on. To clarify, it's two skate that I find the most difficult.

Magnus Johansson wrote:Yes, I wonder if Stina Nilsson thinks Two Skate is harder than One Skate because of the less balance support from the poles.

But doesn't she say that gear 4 is the hardest to master? I.e. one skate?

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:02 am

Neuro wrote:But here it says V2 alternate? Is this thread about V2 or V2 alternate?

Jeff wrote V2. I hope he meant what he wrote.

Neuro wrote:But I think I will follow your example and use the more intuitive Canadian terms from now on. To clarify, it's two skate that I find the most difficult.

Yes, the Canadian terms are better than the American, but I think the gear names are best.

Magnus Johansson wrote:Yes, I wonder if Stina Nilsson thinks Two Skate is harder than One Skate because of the less balance support from the poles.
Neuro wrote:But doesn't she say that gear 4 is the hardest to master? I.e. one skate?

Yes, Gear 4, but that is Two Skate. I suspect the Norwegian terms, where Double Dance is the name for One Skate and Single Dance is the name for Two Skate, contribute to the confusion.

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Neuro » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:41 am

Ah Ok, I thought two skate was a push with each stride.

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby davidb » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:14 am

So for us Americans: gear one is herringbone skate; gear two is V1; gear three is V2; gear four is V2 alternate; gear five is free skate?
NO wait! sorry, I think I've got it backwards. I've got forwards? No just gear three is V1 alternate? Wait, I'm really getting confused!

Ah, crap just forget it! When (and if) I get it figured out, I'll re-post, but, in the mean time, I'll start thinking in terms of two push, double skate is herringbone skate, No, wait, that's dumb, it's actually freeskate ...no, I think,maybe it's...Ah crap just forget it.

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Neuro » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:35 pm

:D

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:38 pm

davidb wrote:So for us Americans: gear one is herringbone skate; gear two is V1; gear three is V2; gear four is V2 alternate; gear five is free skate?

Yes.

davidb wrote:No just gear three is V1 alternate?

V1 alternate can perhaps be the change from poling on the left stride to poling on the right stride in V1 but continue to change back and forth for every stride.

davidb wrote:Ah, crap just forget it! When (and if) I get it figured out, I'll re-post, but, in the mean time, I'll start thinking in terms of two push, double skate is herringbone skate, No, wait, that's dumb, it's actually freeskate ...no, I think,maybe it's...Ah crap just forget it.

I come to think of a commenter here who once thought that "Classic skiers are always smarter, better looking and just superior people; skaters are mostly Bolsheviks."

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby MN Hoser » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:58 am

It's not that hard to do V2 (double skate). What is hard is to do is V2 in great balance with efficiency. In order to be efficient, you need to be in balance so that you're not putting energy into regaining balance. It's hard to see if someone is out of balance unless they're out of balance fairly significantly. Also, it seems you have to get the balance down before you and learn to make the technique efficient and have a powerful pushoff. It's pretty common to see people rocking side-to-side basically double poling on each side, but they haven't really learned to be fast with v2. So yeah, it's a hard technique.

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby Neuro » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:11 am

MN Hoser wrote:V2 (double skate)

Not only me who intuitively thinks V2 is double skate or two skate, but it is actually single skate.. :roll:

But interesting points. Do you have any tricks to work on the balance other than what JeffOYB has said?

I heard that second top dog in biathlon, Shipulin, uses a surprising amount of his training in just balance and co-ordination exercises. Also top woman, Dahlmeier does this. Not surprising with V2 taking over as the most used technique. The best can now do V2 where others are doing offset.

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby MN Hoser » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:59 pm

Thanks for the correction. That's good to know.

I don't do anything for balance, but then again, I'm in my 50s and not as driven as I used to be. I'd say it just takes a lot of practice and that it seems a little easier for me to do V2 at race speeds rather than endurance speed. Maybe that has something to with a longer turnover time at endurance speed.

Jay

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Re: Is V2 necessarily more difficult?

Postby trotro » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:34 am

This video, although in French, illustrates some of Jeff's points,

https://youtu.be/FuotxbRFYHw


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