Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double pole

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Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double pole

Postby dcpattie » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:12 am

Another newbie question - I understand the need for shorter poles for classic style (diagonal stride) compared to skating. However, what if you are on classic rollerskis but exclusively double poling - would you select a pole length similar to your skating pole length, stick with your classic pole length, or split the difference?
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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby Magnus Johansson » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:05 am

dcpattie wrote:Another newbie question - I understand the need for shorter poles for classic style (diagonal stride) compared to skating. However, what if you are on classic rollerskis but exclusively double poling - would you select a pole length similar to your skating pole length, stick with your classic pole length, or split the difference?

I would recommend using the classic style pole length so you are used to that when you start with the diagonal stride.

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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby nxski » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:14 am

It depends on what you're looking for. As mentioned before, a shorter pole length will feel more similar to classic skiing (maybe slightly taller to account for being higher-up on your roller-skis). If you're looking for speed, you can go with a longer pole similar to skate for more power, or switch to rollerblades. :lol:
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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby skiffrace » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:28 am

I'd imagine the length of the pole for diagonal stride and double poling should be the same.
In both cases the pole travels on exactly the same plane, parallel to the moving legs and arms, and in-line with the direction of travel (even though the arms and legs are moving in a different way)
In skating the pole needs to be longer because it needs to be planted further out - beyond the outer edge of the pushing ski, the ski which travels further out compared to skis in classic styles.
So if you want to skate, and buy only one set of poles, get longer poles, and use them for both skating and classical styles.
For all the classical styles, one set of poles will do. The correct length of the pole from the biomechanical perspective has been well established, so go with the standards (but don't forget to accommodate the height of the rollerskis)
I don't know the effects of using the longer skating poles on classical strides. I guess they will not be as efficient as the dedicated classical poles, but unless you race and every second counts, it should not matter in practice.

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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby liège » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:40 am

However, what if you are on classic rollerskis but exclusively double poling - would you select a pole length similar to your skating pole length, stick with your classic pole length, or split the difference?

In a lot of classic marathon races (such as the Swix Ski Classics series), the top racers (men and women) are exclusively double-poling the courses. They're using slightly longer poles than they'd use if they were striding - generally, 2-5cm longer. So, instead of 150cm, maybe something like 152.5. A lot of that depends on how strong the skier is, and how comfortable they are with the longer poles. This is also the case in World Cup classic sprinting - especially on courses which are being double-poled. If you have a pole sponsor, it's pretty simple to have a pair of poles for sprinting and flat[ter] courses, where there's going to be a lot of double-pole, and a pair that is "normal" for courses where you're going to stride a lot. (That's a big "if"!)

I'd imagine the length of the pole for diagonal stride and double poling should be the same. In both cases the pole travels on exactly the same plane, parallel to the moving legs and arms, and in-line with the direction of travel (even though the arms and legs are moving in a different way)

Same plane, yes, but most people are double-poling from a higher starting position than they do in striding. (Hands are getting higher.) So maybe it's the same plane, but not the same range of motion.

In skating the pole needs to be longer because it needs to be planted further out - beyond the outer edge of the pushing ski, the ski which travels further out compared to skis in classic styles.

The other thing to consider is the relationship between cycle length and cycle frequency: How far each pole push will take you, and high your tempo is. In striding, your tempo may be [approximately] between 90-150 pole plants per minute; in double-pole and skating, 60-90. Shorter poles are easier to manage with the higher tempo, but longer poles allow you to go farther with each pole plant.

It depends on what you're looking for.

Exactly. And it depends on what your strengths are. If you have very strong arms and a core that can support starting from a high hand position, then long poles may be a good option. If you're more reliant on tempo than power, then shorter poles might make sense.

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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby JeffOYB » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:43 am

Striding with long poles feels terrible. I would think the results are pretty bad, too.

If you're going to classic on a proper trail then you'll want poles sized for classic striding.

When classic racers doublepole a lot it just means they're on a lame, boring trail -- maybe one associated with a long tradition or something, but it's not real classic so they spend their time DPing and use longer poles and skip the kick wax, etc.

Don't judge classic by DPing!

Real classic has plenty of uphills and you'll want to size your pole for optimal uphill striding.

Pole length is important: get the right length for whatever kind of skiing you're doing.

Terrain and style do matter.

If my poles are "off" a half-inch either way I get cranky! Tempo can get messed up. Swing weight, hand height, planting placement. Classic with long poles: ugh!

And, yeah, you might want to accommodate the height of your rollerskis though I've noticed this less. I don't own rollerski poles. But I only RS a dozen times each fall. I also Catski.
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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby TooHeavy » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:15 pm

dcpattie wrote:Another newbie question - I understand the need for shorter poles for classic style (diagonal stride) compared to skating. However, what if you are on classic rollerskis but exclusively double poling - would you select a pole length similar to your skating pole length, stick with your classic pole length, or split the difference?
Use your skate pole length. Top skiers at the Vasa loppet in Sweden (90 km) just double pole and use no kick wax. Some world cup classic sprinters go with no kick wax also at world cup sprints. You must be fit and strong though.

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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby JeffOYB » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:39 pm

TooHeavy wrote:
dcpattie wrote:Another newbie question - I understand the need for shorter poles for classic style (diagonal stride) compared to skating. However, what if you are on classic rollerskis but exclusively double poling - would you select a pole length similar to your skating pole length, stick with your classic pole length, or split the difference?
Use your skate pole length. Top skiers at the Vasa loppet in Sweden (90 km) just double pole and use no kick wax. Some world cup classic sprinters go with no kick wax also at world cup sprints. You must be fit and strong though.


But of course this isn't "real" classic skiing and training with skate poles doesn't train you for classic skiing.

The kinds of skiing you mention are exceptions. Only specialists train that way.

That said, some classic courses today do tend to be heavy on the boring part of classic skiing, doublepoling. People call such races "doublepole fests" in a derogatory way.

So I suppose you should train for the kind of skiing you'll be doing.

I do all I can to avoid classic events that have very much doublepoling. Ugh. Boring.

Around here most classic events still have way too much DPing. That's one reason why my pals and I have created a classic series with about 10% DP -- much more like it. We use hiking trails since they have enough hilliness and challenge to encourage quality ski skills and to discourage all boredom.
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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby TooHeavy » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:21 pm

DCPattie you should follow this web site to really get a view of what the racing community is all about.http://www.ski-lines.com/

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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby dcpattie » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:10 pm

TooHeavy wrote:DCPattie you should follow this web site to really get a view of what the racing community is all about.http://www.ski-lines.com/


Thanks - great site!
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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby dcpattie » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:52 am

Another thing I've noticed regarding pole length...the correlation of pole length and hotspots on my feet. During a 25k DP session I've noticed by using 5mm longer poles my trouble "hotspots" on my feet reduce dramatically - what's going on? Could it be the extra length is redistributing weight from my feet to my upper body???
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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:40 pm

dcpattie wrote:Another thing I've noticed regarding pole length...the correlation of pole length and hotspots on my feet. During a 25k DP session I've noticed by using 5mm longer poles my trouble "hotspots" on my feet reduce dramatically - what's going on? Could it be the extra length is redistributing weight from my feet to my upper body???


Interesting. What pole length ratio do you use (pole length/body height=pole length ratio)?

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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby dcpattie » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:15 pm

Magnus Johansson wrote:
dcpattie wrote:Another thing I've noticed regarding pole length...the correlation of pole length and hotspots on my feet. During a 25k DP session I've noticed by using 5mm longer poles my trouble "hotspots" on my feet reduce dramatically - what's going on? Could it be the extra length is redistributing weight from my feet to my upper body???


Interesting. What pole length ratio do you use (pole length/body height=pole length ratio)?


I'm 193 cm tall and I'm using 160 and 165 poles. My rollerskis are Jenex V2 150 Aero (RC). With the 165s I noticed less fatigue on my feel?!?
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Re: Question About Pole Length: diagonal stride vs double po

Postby Magnus Johansson » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:27 pm

dcpattie wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:
dcpattie wrote:Another thing I've noticed regarding pole length...the correlation of pole length and hotspots on my feet. During a 25k DP session I've noticed by using 5mm longer poles my trouble "hotspots" on my feet reduce dramatically - what's going on? Could it be the extra length is redistributing weight from my feet to my upper body???


Interesting. What pole length ratio do you use (pole length/body height=pole length ratio)?


I'm 193 cm tall and I'm using 160 and 165 poles. My rollerskis are Jenex V2 150 Aero (RC). With the 165s I noticed less fatigue on my feel?!?


It is no surprise that 165 cm poles suit you best. With them you are very near the recommended ratio of 1:0,85.


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