Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

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dcpattie
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Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby dcpattie » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:04 pm

I'm curious how much faster classic rollerskiing is compared to running. For example, say you can run 10 miles in 60 mins (10 MPH); would you expect to classic rollerski (mostly DP) faster, slower, or about the same speed? Consider a route that is mostly flat with some gradual long uphills but no downhills.
Dave in Nordic Virginia

Chris
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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby Chris » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:30 am

For me with standard Marwe wheels it is about 50% faster classic roller skiing than if I was going to run the same route

makerr
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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby makerr » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:45 pm

That's a hard question to answer, as there are so many variables involved in comparing the two. I think the most important concern is to try and make sure that your roller skiing setup duplicates the speed that you can ski at on snow or maybe slightly slower. On a good day on snow I'm skiing around a 3 minute per km pace, and on my roller skis I'm around 3-3.5 minutes per km.

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skiffrace
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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby skiffrace » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:09 am

makerr wrote:That's a hard question to answer, as there are so many variables involved in comparing the two. I think the most important concern is to try and make sure that your roller skiing setup duplicates the speed that you can ski at on snow or maybe slightly slower. On a good day on snow I'm skiing around a 3 minute per km pace, and on my roller skis I'm around 3-3.5 minutes per km.

Well, some of us rarely or never get to ski on snow, due to location, and rollerskis are all we do. Duplicating the snow-skiing speed is therefore pointless.
Furthermore, the speed, both on snow, and on rollerskis, is highly dependent. In case of snow it's dependent on snow conditions and waxing (if using classic technique), in case of rollerskis it is dependent on type of rollerskis, with great difference between the slow and the fast ones.

I use a rather slow type of rollerskis - V2, with inflatable tires, and low tire pressure (~30psi) for increased comfort and puncture resistance.
When using classic diagonal technique, I can move at 12 to 13 kph (7.5-8mph) over long distances. Using double poling/single kick, my speed increases to 14-15kph. Pumping up the tires all the way to recommended 90 psi might increase those speed somewhat, but I see no benefits in doing that. In fact, I spend most of my rollerskiing with speed reducers heavily engaged, which brings my speed even further to ~10kph(6mph), and raises my heart rate by 8 to 10 bpm.

It's been decades since I ran (rowing is now my primary sport), but when I did, my 12 to 15k running speed was somewhere half-way between my diagonal and my double poling techniques speed.
Based on what I read and see on Youtube, there are lots of rollerskis that are substantially faster, easily allowing speeds 20kph+ (13mph+), and only the elite runners can go 20kph over distance. Hence, on average, reasonably fast rollerskis should be noticeably faster than running.

However, the conclusion is: the heart rate over time is the real measure of the training effort, not speed over distance. As mentioned, unlike running, speed in roller and snow skiing is often too variable to have much meaning, unless you time yourself once in a while, in identical conditions and on identical course, to check your progress.

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby bmullin » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:36 pm

I would contend that duplicating snow speed is not pointless for most people who roller ski. You are certainly correct, from an aerobic only view point getting your HR up is an indication of a good workout. If your intent is to get a good workout AND to improve your on snow skiing then "snow feel" is also important. If you can't translate the motions on roller skis to on snow you'll just be a fit snow angel maker. :lol: Now what the right "snow feel" or "snow speed" is, that is a hard thing to figure out for all the reasons you mentioned.

Back to the original question... DP only on gradual terrain with NO downhills I would guess that I personally am a good 25% faster skiing with my equipement. Something north of 40 minutes for 10k running. Probably a little north of 30 minutes skiing. The steeper the uphills the smaller the delta if I'm only allowed to DP.

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby skiffrace » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:18 am

bmullin wrote:I would contend that duplicating snow speed is not pointless for most people who roller ski. ... to improve your on snow skiing then "snow feel" is also important. If you can't translate the motions on roller skis to on snow you'll just be a fit snow angel maker. :lol: Now what the right "snow feel" or "snow speed" is, that is a hard thing to figure out for all the reasons you mentioned.

Sorry, I was imprecise in my post - I meant no reason to compare with snow if you only rollerski.
I fully agree that for you people who are lucky enough to have snow season, rollerskiing should be subservient to snow skiing, and geared to emulate snow skiing as closely as possible. OTOH, if you never ski on snow, rollerskiing, when done properly (which, IMHO means with somewhat heavy resistance), is a great way to get a workout 2x as good as running and 10x more fun :-)

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby bmullin » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:13 pm

What horror. Never get to ski on snow? I don't even want to imagine it. :shock:

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby skiffrace » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:27 am

bmullin wrote:What horror. Never get to ski on snow? I don't even want to imagine it. :shock:

In fact, I did, when I lived in a place that actually had snowy winters, but it was far away and 30 years ago. I still have fond memories vivid in my mind.
To be honest, the only good thing I can say about snow is that you can ski on it (and it looks good at Christmas time).
I still somewhat miss that sport, and once in a while contemplate the move to a place where you can do it all winter without having drive for hours.
However, the cons (months of cold, freeze-thaw cycles, freezing rain, dangerous driving, very dangerous or impossible bicycling, high heating costs etc.) heavily outweigh the few hours of XC enjoyment per week.
In the meantime, I will equally enjoy outdoors through other sports like rowing, kayaking, hiking and rollerskiing.

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby Pat » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:16 pm

Yep as long as you are outside doing something you are way ahead of the ball game. The key is mixing it up and staying healthy and happy.

Yeah I also wonder on a flat 5K course, two world class athletes at the top of their running or Nordic game, which would crank out the fastest time.

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby TooHeavy » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:56 am

Pat wrote:

Yeah I also wonder on a flat 5K course, two world class athletes at the top of their running or Nordic game, which would crank out the fastest time.

I don't it would not even be close the skier would be well ahead.

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby skiffrace » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:44 am

TooHeavy wrote:
Pat wrote:

Yeah I also wonder on a flat 5K course, two world class athletes at the top of their running or Nordic game, which would crank out the fastest time.

I don't it would not even be close the skier would be well ahead.


I tend to agree, but I think it would depend on technique used and snow conditions.
The current 5K running world record stands at 12.37.35
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5000_metr ... rogression

While there are no official records in xc skiing, we can look at the times.
At the last Olympics in Sochi, the best splits for the 4x10K mens relay were ~21' for the skating and ~23' for the classic technique.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-cou ... etre_relay

Divide those times by 2 and even the classic technique wins by a substantial margin, not to mention the fact that skier would go faster still if he had only 5K to cover.

The Sochi times were exceptionally fast (hydroplaning in 60 degree weather), if you look at Vancouver Olympics, the 4x10 relay split times were ~24 for skating and ~27 for classical. The skating split might still win against the running world record, but not by so much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-cou ... etre_relay

Yet another factor in favour of xc-skiiers: the running world record was set by runner who was running for the record full speed the whole time.
The relay race at the Olympics is a game. The racers go full on towards the end of split/race, but in the middle of the race there is a lot of tactics, which means they often go not as fast as they could.
I posit if they were time trialing, the skiing times would be noticeably faster.

No skier will ever match the 10s/100m running sprint speed (unless going down steep hill :-), OTOH no marathon runner will ever match the 1.46.55 time for 50K race at Sochi (avg speed = 28kph !!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-cou ... _freestyle

I suppose somewhere ~3-5K distance is where the skiing times would start to make gains on running times.
Last edited by skiffrace on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Running Speed vs Classic Roller Skiing

Postby Pat » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:31 am

Hey dcpattie -- that was a great reply. I guess what put my thoughts about the speed in my head was, I was with a buddy of mine and we were skiing up at Osceola, on the Tug Hill Plateau. Great ski center there by the way... Anyhow we were asked to help on the course for a local high school ski race -- a very hilly course. Both my buddy and myself were/are still competitive runners and he also used to ski race when he was in school in Alaska. So he commented on the times that were being raced that they were almost as fast as running times -- and they were. So I guess that was the nugget that I was thinking of. Having been around on the track when sub four minute miles are being run, and like you stated the incredible speed carried over in a 5K WR on the track, I had that in my head/experience. But I think you definitely answered my question -- Nordic skis are faster with terrain and talent accounted for.

Now if you had a horse running on a muddy track next to a skier on good snow who do you think........


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