1000 cheating Russians

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Magnus Johansson
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1000 cheating Russians

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:44 pm

In the enormous alleged doping scandal involving 1000 Russian athletes, not one single name has been revealed. Why is that?

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby MN Hoser » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:52 pm

I'm purely guessing here. I read that the mode of cheating was to replace possible dirty urine samples with clean ones. It seems they now have looked at the samples (the word forensic in the report) and determined cheating occurred. They are also saying they're going to retest many samples. My guess is that they'll also DNA test samples to show if the sample is actually from that competitor. If the sample was frozen, this can work (not much DNA in urine). If the sample was refrigerated, DNA testing may not work because of bacteria degrading the DNA. If they have DNA evidence that a sample does not match the competitor, that's strong. In order to replace the possible dirty urine with clean urine from that competitor might be problematic.

Unfortunately, it looks like this was cheating from the top down. I'm betting that many competitors had option of cheat, quit, or leave Russia.

Jay

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby MN Hoser » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:07 pm

Just read:

http://fasterskier.com/fsarticle/mclare ... chi-games/

It sounds like the info is released to the individual agencies for them to deal with the problem.

Jay

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby skiffrace » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:31 pm

Many people posting here probably remember Olympics of yore, say 60s through 80s.
Soviet Union (=Russia + enslaved territories) dominated most of the events.
Ex, during the 1976 Montreal Olympics Soviets won 49 gold medals, tiny East Germany won 40, and United States was only third with 34 gold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Summ ... edal_table
The 1976 Winter Olympics in Innsbruck were even more stunning: 13-7-3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Wint ... edal_table
How did they do it!? Superhuman "talent" of their athletes? Uncanny wisdom of their coaches? A lot of "hard work"? Dedication to the "socialist cause?"
Well, US had the first 3 components in spades as well, and was a vastly superior country in every possible way, especially science and technology.
Vastly superior in science except one branch - biochemical manipulation of human body through covert means.
So, the revelations that Russian (and East German) sport is based on the needle are neither new or surprising.
The interesting aspect is how the Internet-based free-flow of information can be used for good (like this one) or bad (Russians hacking US elections)

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:05 am

skiffrace wrote:Well, US had the first 3 components in spades as well, and was a vastly superior country in every possible way, (...)

No, not in every possible way but certainly in killing its own president in a most frightening way in 1963 and getting away with it. But Sweden is since 1986 perhaps even better at that if one translates president into prime minister.

skiffrace wrote:The interesting aspect is how the Internet-based free-flow of information can be used for good (like this one) or bad (Russians hacking US elections)

The US elections have been tampered with for a very long time by forces within USA. The famous words attributed to Josef Stalin is a reality in the so-called leading nation of the free world: "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:19 am

MN Hoser wrote:Just read:

http://fasterskier.com/fsarticle/mclare ... chi-games/

It sounds like the info is released to the individual agencies for them to deal with the problem.

Jay

What individual agencies?

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby MN Hoser » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:34 am

First WADA, then the country federations. So if a US skier was involved, it would be (I assume) the United States Ski Association. I'm not sure the Russian counterpart will do much, since (of course) this is a western conspiracy against the great Russia.

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:45 am

MN Hoser wrote:First WADA, then the country federations. So if a US skier was involved, it would be (I assume) the United States Ski Association. I'm not sure the Russian counterpart will do much, since (of course) this is a western conspiracy against the great Russia.

Jay

At this stage I can't rule out a conspiracy neither by Western countries nor Russia. I just find the circumstances for this doping scandal very odd.

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby Neuro » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:11 am

Yes it is quite odd. Such a huge claim and scandal and then keeping it under wraps doesn't make sense like you say. Besides, this is old news. The organized sample tampering by Russians came out quite a while back.

I wouldn't put it past them considering the history (always some Russians caught every year), and after the whole Finnish XC team conspired before, but why insinuate and not put the evidence on the table?

Another thing in the mix which I find weird is that remember Austrian XC skier Johannes Duerr was caught? He himself was shocked that he had passed a dozen tests over time, even when he was taking double doses. It seems the whole testing system is also suspect.

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby skiffrace » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:56 am

No, not in every possible way but certainly in killing its own president in a most frightening way in 1963 and getting away with it

Magnus, I am not sure where are you going with that comparison. JFK, the American president, was killed by a deranged individual (directed by whom ?...russia perhaps)
In russia, it is the president who orders the murders of his political opponents, with his countrymen applauding "what a great, strong leader he is"

then the country federations

Certainly not the country federations. It should be the international organization for the given sport that makes the decision. That's what the IAAF did to russian track and field team, and it should be handled similar way by FIS.


It seems the whole testing system is also suspect.

It is not only suspect, it is already indicted. Indicted of incompetence, lack of procedures, lack of foresight, most of all, lack of funding.
Indicted of attempting to stop the russian billion-dollar, industrial-military cheating machine with the equivalent of chewing gum and prayer.

Do athletes from other countries cheat too? Sure. It's all about the method and scale.

Such a huge claim and scandal and then keeping it under wraps doesn't make sense like you say.

Serious cases like this take time to develop - to gather the courage first, then the evidence, finally, a reliable way to deliver it. It is not gossip, it is international politics.

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:35 pm

skiffrace wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:No, not in every possible way but certainly in killing its own president in a most frightening way in 1963 and getting away with it.

Magnus, I am not sure where are you going with that comparison. JFK, the American president, was killed by a deranged individual (directed by whom ?...russia perhaps)

Here is the "deranged individual" James Files who fired the shot from the grassy knoll at Dealey Plaza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxtrFoh3Pao
Here is what I believe to be the most plausible theory on the murder of John F Kennedy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65N3eP2yvbQ

skiffrace wrote:(...) it is international politics.

Yes, I suspect it is.

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby Neuro » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:55 pm

Didn't know about the James Files confession, but JFK assassination obviously very interesting topic. An obvious conspiracy, but maybe best discussed in the OT forum.

Several days now and nothing more in the news here about what must be the biggest scandal in sports last decades. But with the anti-Russian propaganda reaching fever pitch generally, it's hard to discern what's real and not. I mean they even threw the US election apparently.. :o

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby Magnus Johansson » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:46 am

Neuro wrote:Didn't know about the James Files confession, but JFK assassination obviously very interesting topic. An obvious conspiracy, but maybe best discussed in the OT forum.

Indeed, it is interesting, and the links to other political murders and coup d'états around the world doesn't make it less interesting.

Neuro wrote:Several days now and nothing more in the news here about what must be the biggest scandal in sports last decades. But with the anti-Russian propaganda reaching fever pitch generally, it's hard to discern what's real and not.

Yes, it is very mysterious. Swedish Television interviewed Markus Cramer, coach for the Russian cross-country ski team, and he said he could easily understand the suspicions but he also said he is 1000 % sure there is no doping going on in the current Russian team.

Neuro wrote:I mean they even threw the US election apparently.. :o

Ha, ha, ha! That statement was first made by the current illegal president of the USA, I believe.

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby skiffrace » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:54 am

current illegal president of the USA

Really? Even John McCain and Mitt Romney did not claim that. Racism in Sweden runs deep...
Last edited by skiffrace on Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1000 cheating Russians

Postby skiffrace » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:55 am

Swedish Television interviewed Markus Cramer, coach for the Russian cross-country ski team, and he said he could easily understand the suspicions but he also said he is 1000 % sure there is no doping going on in the current Russian team.

Credible statement coming from an unbiased authority.


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