Senate votes to allow spying

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Greggb
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Senate votes to allow spying

Postby Greggb » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:27 pm

Last December, Sen. Chris Dodd (D-CT) successfully filibustered consideration of a measure that would grant immunity to telecom companies that were complicit in warrantless surveillance. But in the Senate today, an amendment by Dodd and Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) to strip retroactive immunity from a Senate Intelligence Committee bill failed to reach the necessary 51 votes. The final vote tally was 31-67. Meaning our government has basically allowed its self to spy on whomever they want for what ever reason. The idea of checks and balances is dead.

The checks and balances put in place by our forefathers are no longer relevant. There are not 2 parties, there is one corporate party that pulls the strings.. This ---- really pisses me off.


Why do telecoms need immunity?
If they did nothing wrong…
then why do they need immunity?

If they did something wrong…
why is it not being investigated?

If you are not interested in politics, now is the time to start paying attention. It seems as long as we keep feeding Americans a steady diet of Brittney Spears and American Idol, the majority will sit back idling mindlessly.

All new politicians to be sworn in with this:
We the Elected Representatives of the United States, in Order to protect a corporate, capitalist based Union, disregard Justice, insure domestic instability, provide for the Wealthiest at the Poor’s expense, promote middle and lower class warfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty only to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of Corporate America.
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Postby kaNUK » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:45 am

AMEN :shock:

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Re: Senate votes to allow spying

Postby Biffbradford » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:18 am

Greggb wrote: ... Meaning our government has basically allowed its self to spy on whomever they want for what ever reason. _


It's always been that way ... always will be.

If Uncle Sam needs to know what you're up to ... they'll find out.

;)

SLightly off topic, but hits home to me ... at my annual review at work my boss says "you're not reading my emails promptly enough". Turns out that the company tracks when you open them and their attatchments.

Who knew? Now I open each one ... whether I read it or not.
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Postby lkm » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:23 am

The immunity was granted because somebody may file a frivolous lawsuit against them. In that case, the companies would probably be very hesitant to ever cooperate with the government again, even if it was clearly legal.

I am on the fence about wiretapping. I have limited government conservative-libertarian leanings and don't like the idea of too much government power. There certainly should be a discussion about it. But on the other hand it is difficult to have freedom if we are dead, and I think you don't have anything to worry about if you aren't a terrorist.

While we need to sort out our surveillance laws, I am happy that immunity from frivolous lawsuits was granted to these companies in the mean time to ensure their future cooperation.

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Postby Greggb » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:53 pm

I see it differently, why should any company be given immunity from breaking the law? Sounds like we are inching towards a corporate state, if not already there. While all us were not paying attention our lovely president has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution. One of these being the ability to to investigate the now-legendary waste, fraud and abuse of the contracting process during what was to be the reconstruction of Iraq. Basically, Halliburton can do as they wish and there not be any consequence. As tax payers arent we entitled to know if our money is being wasted?

Anyone that trusts our government will not abuse its power to spy is smoking something. History has always shown, our government will abuse any power they get. There used be this thing called checks and balances, but doesnt exist anymore. I dont understand how spying is going to prevent another attack :?: Our government had knowledge of 9/11 plot but was never acted apon.

Never has this rang truer "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"
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Stuff

Postby JeffM » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:17 pm

If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about. That is the way I look at it.

Verizon and At&T Wireless can listen in on my calls any time they want. I've got nothing to hide.

It isn't only this admin in the White House that has done many shady things. I remember all the stuff that the LEFT has done that wasn't quite up to par.
Everyone always rags on the RIGHT but what about Bill and Hillary and the Whitewater scandal and his little thrill that caused a stain on a Blue dress of a fat ugly chick and then said "I did not have sexual relations with that women"

Any married man should try coming home and tell their wife they got a nobber from some girl at work, but that wasn't having sex with her. I know my wife would throw me out and I'm sure 99% of the wife's in america would also.

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Re: Stuff

Postby Greggb » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:29 am

JeffM wrote:If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about. That is the way I look at it.

Verizon and At&T Wireless can listen in on my calls any time they want. I've got nothing to hide.

It isn't only this admin in the White House that has done many shady things. I remember all the stuff that the LEFT has done that wasn't quite up to par.
Everyone always rags on the RIGHT but what about Bill and Hillary and the Whitewater scandal and his little thrill that caused a stain on a Blue dress of a fat ugly chick and then said "I did not have sexual relations with that women"

Any married man should try coming home and tell their wife they got a nobber from some girl at work, but that wasn't having sex with her. I know my wife would throw me out and I'm sure 99% of the wife's in america would also.


I defend neither side, they are both scum. But dissolving the Constitution and protecting those that help you, doesnt even compare with a stain on blue dress or the millions of tax payer money it cost to investigate. Compare that with billions we are pouring into a never ending war is beyond ridiculous. I'll take the blue stain any day.

Regardless if you have nothing to hide, the government has no business with warrantless spying on its citizens. There is this thing called Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act which was born out of the Watergate affair in order for the courts to provide checks and balances so our government doesnt abuse it powers. Fascism is what you get when checks and balances are removed. The fight for freedom needs to occur in our border not some sand trap oil rich wasteland.

When your government says "trust us" we dont need checks and balances? Bullsh$T. Its sort of like the NRA, they oppose all gun control under the premise, that if you allow just one, you open the door for more. Same thing with our Freedom, you open the door for government to take just one away, then you might as well be prepared for more. Read 1984.

One should take great concern when the prez of the US says “Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!” Very scary.

The President has said that American lives will be sacrificed if Congress does not change FISA. But he has also said that he will veto any FISA bill that does not grant retro-active immunity. No immunity, no FISA bill. So if we take the President at his word, he's willing to let Americans die to protect the phone companies.
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Postby lkm » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:19 am

I think there are two separate issues to consider here. One is warrentless wiretapping and whether or not it is legal. I do have concerns about it and can see that it may be unconstitutional if it is done to U.S. citizens. (In my view, non-citizens are not protected under the constitution).

The other issue is the immunity to the phone companies. I support this. Why? Because I think that if anything was done improperly, the blame should be placed on the federal government. They were the ones who ordered the program. Just because you hate private enterprise doesn't mean they should be blamed for things that aren't their fault. In the business world, it is often difficult to keep pace with exactly what the government wants you to do. It would be wrong for the government to first say the companies are required to assist with this program, and later say that they shouldn't have participated and are now prone to lawsuits.

Just like it is nearly impossible for employers to follow laws regarding illegal immigrants. If they ask too many questions when hiring, they get in trouble for "discrimination". Therefore they end up hiring some illegals. They also get in trouble for this, making it impossible to follow the law since either route is illegal.

It is humorous to see Feingold acting as if he is the expert on the constitution after successfully passing the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform. Portions of this law are (or should be) unconstitutional in their suppression of free speech.

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Postby donpollari » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:55 pm

Agree with you Gregg. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a plutocracy which protects and serves big corporations.

Obama expressed the problem well when he said that the system has been fixed to reward wealth rather than rewarding work.

To compare Bubba's hummer to the devastation that dubya and his handlers have wreaked on this country and the world is laughable.

:albino:

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Postby lkm » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:22 am

Capitalism = good

Government forced wealth redistribution = bad for everybody

Marxism = bad

Large corporations = variable (mostly good), but definitely not always bad as you guys seem to think (the only one I REALLY hate is Wal-Mart)

Small businesses = great (I work at one), but your anti business/private enterprise philosphy will take them down too

I'm afraid that if Obama's ideas are implemented, we will lose even more jobs to China. I really do like him as a person, he seems like a nice guy. But what ever happened to voting for somebody based on their views and ideas? People seem to support him because of his charismatic personality and the vague concepts of "hope" and "change", without any substance. I can't find any candidate to get excited about this time around.

And it looks like I am "way off topic", but that's the title of the forum.

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Postby donpollari » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:46 pm

Capitalism is good up to a point 1km, at this point in history, it has gone way too far. Government has abdicated it's responsibility to rein in corporate power.

Corporations now run things and the wealthiest 1% of the population control more wealth than the bottom 90% of the population. Look into a economic statistic called the Gini coefficient. Since the mid 1970's economic distribution in the US has become more and more uneven.

I was up in Park City today, the conspicuous consumption is over the top. Everyone and their dog is riding around in a friggin' escalade, hummer, or 50 grand AWD audi. Mcmansions and condos cover every inch of buildable landscape and continue up and up the mountainsides.

Have you any idea how unsustainable the current economic system is?

A hard rain's gonna fall...

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Re: Stuff

Postby MN Hoser » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:21 pm

JeffM wrote:It isn't only this admin in the White House that has done many shady things. I remember all the stuff that the LEFT has done that wasn't quite up to par.
Everyone always rags on the RIGHT but what about Bill and Hillary and the Whitewater scandal and his little thrill that caused a stain on a Blue dress of a fat ugly chick and then said "I did not have sexual relations with that women"


I'm not a political guy, so I don't remember the facts well.

If you looks at the Bush administration, it's the most unethical in history.

-Iraq war and the oil industry...oh yeah, Bush family is in oil.
-Haliburton
-Ignoring science (not just global warming, but other policy, re-writing studies, changing findings, etc)
-Valorie Plaim
-Pardoning Scotter Libby
-New Orleans
-Nominating Harriet Miers for her anti Roe vs. Wade vote

I wish I could remember more. There is so much more.

Jay

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Re: Stuff

Postby LewLasher » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:35 pm

MN Hoser wrote:I wish I could remember more. There is so much more.

There's the routine use of "signing statements", where President Bush decides that he doesn't have to comply with the law.

There's the attempt to use the Justice Department for political purposes, and firing the staff who didn't comply.

But, you're right; there is so much unethical conduct that it's hard to remember it all.

Lew

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Postby lkm » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:49 am

Government has abdicated it's responsibility to rein in corporate power.


Can you please point to the part of the constitution where it states that this is a "responsibility" of government? I must have missed it.

We live in the USA, not the USSR. Reining in corporate power is not the responsibility of the government. It is up to the consumers to decide.

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Postby donpollari » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:46 am

1km, the constitution is structured to ensure the government works for The People.

It has abdicated that constitutional responsibility and works for corporations. Thanks for pointing that out.


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