Carbonlite - worth buying

Skis, Boots and Pole Reviews and Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Group

User avatar
nxski
World Cup
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:44 pm
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby nxski » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:42 pm

jt10000 wrote:
nxski wrote:What do you think it means?

I don't know. The words "25% faster" mean that something travels 25% faster, which is not credible for differences in top end skis, even gliding downhill. Perhaps in a vacuum it would be possible.

So it makes no sense to me, or is false.


They've posted it in their catalogue, so it must be true under some condition.
"Live the life you love, love the life you live"

nes-design-construction.com

Nick Spurling

User avatar
jt10000
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 495
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:56 am
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby jt10000 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:17 am

nxski wrote:They've posted it in their catalogue, so it must be true under some condition.

Must be, so I guess we should pass that claim along.
Temporary Signature ---- http://bit.ly/2hKgHk7 ----- Temporary Signature

MN Hoser
Ski Forum God
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby MN Hoser » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:07 am

Ok, I've been a Fischer fan, ski Fischer skis, might well help with the Fischer demo at the Birkie, but 25% faster must be BS....or eh marketing. A 0.25% change would be very significant, and if that happens, I think a bunch of people will be buying these skis in the future. Yeah, yeah, I understand the cold rolled vs. heat application but it sounds like the base material is still polyethylene. Then we're talking about the structure (microscopically) of the material.

Interesting though.

Jay

User avatar
jt10000
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 495
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:56 am
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby jt10000 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:10 am

Yeah, I'm totally open to the idea that the cold-produced base might be a tiny bit better. Interesting concept.
Temporary Signature ---- http://bit.ly/2hKgHk7 ----- Temporary Signature

User avatar
enevala
World Cup
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:05 pm
Location: Minne(hoping for some)SnowTa

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby enevala » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:16 am

jt10000 wrote:I don't know. The words "25% faster" mean that something travels 25% faster, which is not credible for differences in top end skis, even gliding downhill. Perhaps in a vacuum it would be possible.


Agreed...on the surface it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. I'm willing to dismiss these claims as mostly marketing hokum until I've seen someone like Zach Caldwell do some independent analysis/testing on these.

Is it a faster ski? Probably
Is it 25% faster? Don't know--this triggers the BS o'meter

MN Hoser wrote:A 0.25% change would be very significant

.25%?? That makes much more sense--however does that translate to all flexes, grinds, and conditions, or do you only get that "bonus" in very specific situations??

DMK
xcskiforum 30K
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:38 pm
Location: Anchorage

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby DMK » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:35 am

I don't know for sure but I am guessing that skiers on the WC are using these skis this year. If that 25% were even close to true wouldn't Fisher skiers be beating everyone else by considerable margins? What's the percent back of a 26th place in a WC? I am guessing pretty small. If I recall correctly, from a percentage standpoint, 1st and around 250 in the Birkie is around 10%.

On a somewhat related note, have folks noticed that over the past several years Devon Kershaw has repeatedly skied extremely well on a pair of Fisher classic skis that have the graphics from the 1st generation skate cut era? Wouldn't those skis be 10+ years old? I think he used them when he won gold in the last World Championship sprint relay. My only observation on this is that (as Jay has said at least a few times this winter) just because a ski is old doesn't mean it's slow.

Dave

osloskier
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:28 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby osloskier » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:45 pm

DMK wrote:I don't know for sure but I am guessing that skiers on the WC are using these skis this year. If that 25% were even close to true wouldn't Fisher skiers be beating everyone else by considerable margins? What's the percent back of a 26th place in a WC? I am guessing pretty small. If I recall correctly, from a percentage standpoint, 1st and around 250 in the Birkie is around 10%.


You might get a 25 % improvement by mounting rockets on them. There's just no way they can be 25 % faster. 25 % better vibration dampening might for example be credible, but whatever it is that is 25 % improved, it will not translate into 25 % increased speed.

On a somewhat related note, have folks noticed that over the past several years Devon Kershaw has repeatedly skied extremely well on a pair of Fisher classic skis that have the graphics from the 1st generation skate cut era? Wouldn't those skis be 10+ years old? I think he used them when he won gold in the last World Championship sprint relay. My only observation on this is that (as Jay has said at least a few times this winter) just because a ski is old doesn't mean it's slow.

Dave


True. Marit Bjørgen's best cold pair is approaching 10 years old, I believe. They test a hundred pairs or so per year, so those skis would be one in several thousand. Probably more, I would guess they're particular about what skis they have her test.

User avatar
nxski
World Cup
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:44 pm
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby nxski » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:24 pm

Like I said, for them to publish it as 25% faster there would have to be some scenario in which it is (either that or we're about to see a lawsuit). It's a trade-off as well, the difference would have to be significant enough for them to go back to using a heavier ski considering how important swing weight is.
"Live the life you love, love the life you live"

nes-design-construction.com

Nick Spurling

User avatar
Cloxxki
World Cup
Posts: 923
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:09 pm

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby Cloxxki » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:02 am

They may have found a 25% lower glide resistance on specific snow against a specific other ski.
If those conditions were fast to begin with, glide resistance will not be your main worry anyway. It will be technique and air resistance.
Like on bikes, a much better tire barely offers measurable advantage over a supermarket quality OEM tire. Especially at race speeds.

You do see pros having difficulty staying still at the start of a sprint. At zero speed, their skis are phenomenal.

Don Callander
xcskiforum 30K
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:39 pm

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby Don Callander » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:24 pm

Maybe they dropped the decimal point and it should be .25%. If my math is correct that would translate to 27 seconds over a three hour race. At a WC race that MIGHT be significant.

User avatar
nxski
World Cup
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:44 pm
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby nxski » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:12 pm

My appologies, my literature had a typo. I checked with Fischer and was told that the number being published is 15%. Not 0.15 but 15!

I think Cloxxki's explanation is the most plausible.

Cloxxki wrote:They may have found a 25% lower glide resistance on specific snow against a specific other ski.
If those conditions were fast to begin with, glide resistance will not be your main worry anyway. It will be technique and air resistance.
Like on bikes, a much better tire barely offers measurable advantage over a supermarket quality OEM tire. Especially at race speeds.

You do see pros having difficulty staying still at the start of a sprint. At zero speed, their skis are phenomenal.
"Live the life you love, love the life you live"

nes-design-construction.com

Nick Spurling

sandatos
xcskiforum 10K
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:49 pm

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby sandatos » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:09 am

Hello,
I just bought a pair of RCS speedmax and they are "prewaxed" with some fluorine wax. Do I need to wax them 5 times with base prep as usual or can I ski with them directly ?

User avatar
nxski
World Cup
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:44 pm
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby nxski » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:50 pm

sandatos wrote:Hello,
I just bought a pair of RCS speedmax and they are "prewaxed" with some fluorine wax. Do I need to wax them 5 times with base prep as usual or can I ski with them directly ?


If you have the ability to, put them in a hotbox. The pre-wax Fischer uses is simply a wax roller that some guy in the factory rolls the ski over in order to prevent them from drying out (it's considered a storage wax). The "ghetto" hotbox is to put the warmest wax you have on the ski, run the iron over them 3 times (wax should be drying right behind the iron), let cool for a couple minutes, then do another 3 passes. You should do this about 7 times. Then let the ski cool for 30-60 min, scrape and brush with a brass or soft steel brush. Now repeat this whole procedure 3 times. Once that's done, seal it in with a CH7 of equivalent, scrape and brush and finish with the wax you plan to ski on. This is what the national team wax tech was telling us to do before hotboxing became the norm and used to be a full day procedure for me when I bought skis.

What I've learned this season is that 15% faster bases is accurate, but that the extra weight of the ski is the reason why you won't see huge differences in race times. Also, there is rumour that next year will be the last year for the carbonlites, because the bi-directional core is proving to not be very strong and the bases are already starting to curve up (especially on customers skis who are heavier and have been skiing on them a lot). They are now being marketed to us as a ski for hilly areas and only for racing on, not training, unless you have lots of money to blow.
"Live the life you love, love the life you live"

nes-design-construction.com

Nick Spurling

MN Hoser
Ski Forum God
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby MN Hoser » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:03 pm

1. I'd treat them like any other new pair of skis. 2. I have 3 pr of carbonlites and see no difference in durability. My hard track pair (the first pair I got) seems to be a bit softer than it used to be. 3. I ordered two pair of speedmax for this season.

Jay

Chris
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:24 am

Re: Carbonlite - worth buying

Postby Chris » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:46 pm

sandatos wrote:Hello,
I just bought a pair of RCS speedmax and they are "prewaxed" with some fluorine wax. Do I need to wax them 5 times with base prep as usual or can I ski with them directly ?


Scraping, brushing and skiing on the factory wax won't hurt anything*, but the skis are unlikely to be at their potential for peak speed if this is all that is done. Hotboxing, or a procedure like nxski gave should help work more wax into the base creating the foundation for a faster ski. I prefer to alternate blue and yellow waxes when I do something like that, though I have no empirical evidence to show that provides a benefit.

*I put the asterisk on won't hurt anything, because the skis may be slightly more resistant to damage from hitting something that is non-snow if some hard wax layers are worked in. I don't know what Fischer uses for wax, so maybe this doesn't apply.


Return to “XC Ski Gear Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests