Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

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Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby JeffOYB » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:25 am

I suppose the answer is relative. But let's say that our skier doesn't race much, if at all, but they still want what modernity can give: carbon. They want to have fun skiing for a few hours. They want a light, stiff, reliable pole. Is there a "sweet spot" in the curve of pricing vs. performance? A carbon pole that gives, say, 80% of race quality but with more reliability at, say, 30% of the price? I wouldn't be surprised.

Also, it should have a versatile basket. If it doesn't -- anyone know a good source for bigger baskets? (Altho this starts messing with our value.)

I like the ~3" baskets from the 80's racing poles for everything but hardpack skiing (softerpack is 80% of my skiing). Are they available somewhere?
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby kuan » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:11 am

I like the Swix CT4 or CT3.
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby nxski » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:05 pm

Leki Trail Carbon...65% Carbon Fibre, removable straps and adjustable basket size.
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby Raubie » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:08 pm

Mike Muha had a post about using bigger baskets:

http://www.nordicskiracer.com/news.asp?NewsID=1180


nxski wrote:Leki Trail Carbon...65% Carbon Fibre, removable straps and adjustable basket size.

I love removable straps. Add adjustable baskets...we might have a winner here. 8)

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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby nxski » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:19 am

[quote="Raubie"]Mike Muha had a post about using bigger baskets:

http://www.nordicskiracer.com/news.asp?NewsID=1180


A good post but it excludes some points.

1. Those smaller excel baskets were cheap and not overly effective
2. A larger basket adds swing weight, so is good for soft snow, but if they aren't needed, don't use them

It also brings up a good point, the fact that energy put into the polling is lost. The same thing occurs with a pole that's too flexible, your energy goes into bending the pole rather than propelling yourself forward.
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby JeffOYB » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:16 am

The $150 Leki might be beyond the mission, but who knows. If it's a great value, why not. But let's call it a higher price point in terms of value.

Maybe I shoulda emphasized an interest in the budget side. Well, I did say "sweet spot." Is there a steep uphill swing in the quality curve before price increases also kick in? Who does best at that? It looks like a $80 carbon pole might be the winner. I want all the key perks of carbon but before bells'n'whistles catch up. Probably don't need a tricky release system. Basically, I want to be able to recommend such a pole to high-skill, fit dayskiers who want to step up their game but who don't really race. Adventure touring, in short, benefits from carbon but doesn't need race quality (or fragility!)

Ah, but here's a funny pole story: my cohort in Adventure Touring has been using an old bamboo pole lately! Not race-grade. Just a Lilledahl (?) tour pole. He loves em. Doesn't even have sharp tips -- and we've had lots of concrete poling base this season with thin cover -- requiring rollerski-sharp tips for me! He's a monster but hasn't complained even on our long uphill jams. We're neck'n'neck! So who knows what's really the game-changer in gear...

Yeah, swing weight and basket conditions are relevant.

As regards flex, I think the energy is only lost if the bend in the pole doesn't spring back. Or, if it springs back how much less energy it releases than was stored in it. Or, if it's released at an unhelpful time.

("Bike Quarterly" is doing studies on bike frames that show that a flexy frame isn't slower because the stored energy is efficiently released in some frames in a way that fits with a rider's timing to give a superior ride quality and no energy loss. Flexy, bouncy bike tires are also shown to not lose energy if well-made and can even be faster in some conditions due to improved suspension properties. The losses of flex in a tire are called hysteresis and can be reduced with finer thread-count, suppleness, quality. Sidewall flex and tread squirm are issues that can be worked with and improved, but stiffer isn't always the goal.)
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby nxski » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:55 pm

I wouldn't go any lower than the ct5 or equivalent, the ct4 has cork which is nice. I would avoid brands like komperdell. It's really hard to give a list of poles to look at without having a general idea of what carbon content, strap and handle type, etc. even once that is narrowed down, there are tons of brands to choose from all of which have pro's and cons. What I find funny though is that salomon isn't very well known for poles but much of the technology on the market is patented by them so they make royalties on just about any pole you buy.
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby Mark M » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:07 am

Basket trivia, identify the pole brands from this picture: :-)
Image
All fairly recent models (third to second best model usually) from known mfgrs.

Left (green one) is Rex as it says. It is an accessory basket designed for ski orienteering and similar It works nicely in loose (dry snow) but I haven't tried it in wet snow.

Parts below basket have different lengths too, causing pole length to vary depending on track conditions.

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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby JeffOYB » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:21 am

Mark M wrote:Basket trivia, identify the pole brands from this picture: :-)
Image


Left (green one) is Rex as it says. It is an accessory basket designed for ski orienteering and similar It works nicely in loose (dry snow) but I haven't tried it in wet snow.



Any idea on where to get this basket? In the US/Can? I googled a Can distro but their Rex link didn't work; no order info.
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby jt10000 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:28 am

Mark M wrote:Basket trivia, identify the pole brands from this picture: :-)
Image
All fairly recent models (third to second best model usually) from known mfgrs.

Left (green one) is Rex as it says. It is an accessory basket designed for ski orienteering and similar It works nicely in loose (dry snow) but I haven't tried it in wet snow.

Second from left is One Way. Far right is Madshus I think.
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby nxski » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:51 am

Mark M wrote:Basket trivia, identify the pole brands from this picture: :-)
Image
All fairly recent models (third to second best model usually) from known mfgrs.

Left (green one) is Rex as it says. It is an accessory basket designed for ski orienteering and similar It works nicely in loose (dry snow) but I haven't tried it in wet snow.

Parts below basket have different lengths too, causing pole length to vary depending on track conditions.


Rex, One Way, Yoko or Salomon, Swix and either Madshus or excel (dependent on sleeve length which I can't see).
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby Mark M » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:03 am

From left to right:
- Rex (sorry Jeff no idea on US/CAN availability but this model is for narrower pole tip (8mm?).
- Oneway
- Oneway (older Diamond 980)
- Swix (default basket, there is bigger model with more pronounced tip available).
- Start

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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby nxski » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:16 am

Mark M wrote:From left to right:
- Rex (sorry Jeff no idea on US/CAN availability but this model is for narrower pole tip (8mm?).
- Oneway
- Oneway (older Diamond 980)
- Swix (default basket, there is bigger model with more pronounced tip available).
- Start


Wasn't expecting that. What makes guessing especially tricky is that 10 different companies can be using the same components. In fact, Salomon holds the patents for just most pole components on the market, so your best bet would be to say that they are all Solomon. :lol:

Also, Yoko has / had tips similar to the Rex's, they were essentially just an enlarged version of their more common tips.
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Re: Best pole value? (bigger baskets?)

Postby Mark M » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:28 am

Yeah, no doubt they are using same parts on different brands making guesses difficult. Perhaps the most interesting thing is that surface area is quite same in all designs - the crescent shaped pick in Swix seems like most creative difference (not improvement in my opinion)
Those poles with Rex basket are actually Yokos so there are some tuning options.

I found the following information on Rex extra wide baskets:
"Extra wide basket for ski orienteering and soft tracks. Available for 8,5 ja 10 mm shaft end diameters."
leaving only availability as concen.


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