Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

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kryten
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Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:30 pm

Hi, I'm looking for me second pair of xc bc skis. I currently own a pair of 179cm Fischer Rebound Crown (88-60-78) and a pair of 180cm Salomon X-Adventure 89 Grip (89-60-78) that me and my gf use. These are mounted with Voile 3 pin cable bindings, and are great after a good snowstorm or when we are playing around in a more hilly area, but we would like to have something more suitable for skiing in tracks with other friends and exploring some of the flat forested park in the area around us, so basically are looking for a more suitable ski for that. My objective is to get a ski that will still fit in a set track when I need, but will be great to explore the back woods and be good for breaking trail on the flats. I would also want to make sure that it will have a decent amount more glide that the above mentioned skis I already own. I would be mounting these with Voile HD Mountaineer 3 pin bindings and Rossignol BC X5 boots I already own.

I was looking at Fischer Spider 62 Crown waxless skis (62-52-60) today and did not end up buying them as I was quite confused with sizing. According to Fischer website:

169: below 69kg
179: 59kg - 85kg
189: over 85kg.

I'm 5'9 and about 160lbs, maybe 165-168 (72 - 76kg) with a pack and I was surprised this would put me on a 179 ski which seems very short.

At the store I tried both 179's and 189's and this is where I get confused. On the sizing board, 179's seemed to be way too soft and there was not much movement of the slider possible, and with the 189's it was not perfect either.

This is how I tried to determine the proper length:

I found the balance point of the ski, put the balance point of the ski over the 0 mark on the board, stood on the skis with the end of my toes at the 0 mark. The slider would move toward the end of the fish scale at the tip end, but would only barely move about half way under my foot instead of all the way under my heel. We tried second time and this time it did not even go that far. That means I will be always dragging part of the fish scale and loosing glide, correct?
Secondary tension was measured by me putting all the weight over one ski and the salesman was able to move the slider slightly on one of the tries, but not at all when we tried again.
Lastly, I tried to stand on my toes on one ski, and there was no movement of the slider whatsoever.

I don't think any of the staff was very experienced with sizing xc skis (neither am I), but from all of this I would definitely not fit on 179's as suggested by Fischer as those would be too soft, but neither very well on 189's. How come, what did we do wrong?

I also tried a paper test after (hopefully level floor). I asked the salesman to move the paper, but even when weighting both skis, paper did not move and got ripped.

These are the videos I watched before I went to the store to help my understand proper sizing of skis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIx0qshvUVE

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ9qM-f4hag

Thanks...

hegel
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby hegel » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:16 pm

I'm not that experienced in this, but I recently went through a similar process and here's what I found: the trend for bc skis is for shorter length for ease of turning. Also, they often have a much softer camber than typical nordic skis, again for ease of turning. so you sacrifice glide for maneuverability. I ended up buying Madshus Glitterinds. Mine have a much stiffer camber than the other bc skis I looked at. Also, they size longer than comparable width bc skis like the Spiders. This is because these skis emphasize glide. I'm happy with my Glitterinds.

Hope that this helps.

kryten
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:27 pm

^ Thanks... Yes, I've noticed they are quite a bit softer, possibly also because of the metal edges? I've looked at the Glittertinds, Asnes Sondre and Fischer E99's, but decided I want something narrower so I can fit into a set track comfortably. Glittertinds seem like would be too wide for that.

Some skis I have in mind that I thought could be good candidates for 50/50 on/off track skiing would be Salomon X-Adventure 59, Salomon X-Adventure Free Grip, Rossignol BC59, Madshus Voss or Fischer Spider 62.

I was hoping those Spider 62 would fit as they are marked down from $299 to $199 and I also have a $100 gift card at that store, so my total would be $99 + tax. At the same time, there is no point in buying them even this cheap if they don't fit right and if they won't work for my intended purpose well.

hegel
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby hegel » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:43 pm

I don't think that you can have both back country and nordic features combined perfectly in one ski. A full metal edged ski that's oriented, almost by definition, for back country use, no matter how narrow, just isn't going to glide as well as a nordic ski. Again, back country skis want a softer camber for increased turning ability. This will result in drag.

At $99.00 those Spiders look awfully attractive--but NOT for groomed nordic skiing.

I bought my Glitterinds on a big sale, then combined them with Rossignol x9 bc boots and magnum bc bindings. This is very good for easy off track skiing. But I would never take this set up onto groomed nordic trails, even if the Glitterinds fit into tracks.

The bc skis that you're looking at will shine in not too deep snow and rolling terrain, where you're looking to cover miles, not carve big turns down a steep slope. You want something at least a bit wider than nordic skis, with beefier boots, off trail. It may be that trying to combine a ski that's skinny enough for Nordic AND solid enough for bc is impossible. You may end up with skis that function very poorly in both situations.

kryten
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:36 am

I see what you saying. I realize you can't combine both back country and nordic into one ski perfectly. At best have a compromise ski that does not excel in either one.

Would you not consider any of the above mentioned skis either for my type of skiing then? Would all of them be very similar to the Spider 62's or are some of the ones I mentioned above better than the Fischer and could work out ok? I heard X-adventure 59's are fairly stiff. Local stores here also carry Madshus Voss, but they seem to be quite soft as well. As I said my only current pair are those X-Adventure 89 and Fischer Rebound skis and I obviously don't fit in tracks, neither do I try as I don't want to ruin it for everyone else.

I'm in no hurry to cover miles, just want a ski that will fit in a track when I need to and still be noticeably faster and glide noticeably better than my current setup. If all I would accomplish by buying those Fischer or similar skis is having a ski that fits in a track and is only slightly faster, than that would be a waste of money for me.

Just wanted to clarify that I'm no speed demon, neither do I need to cover ton of miles. My trips are anywhere from several hours to no more than 20km long.

Thanks again for all the input.

hegel
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby hegel » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:10 am

I really don't have experience with the list of skis that you mention, so I can't comment. However, my guess is that the Spiders are typical. Also, they get great reviews. Perhaps the Madshus Voss, if they're like my Glitterinds, will have stiffer camber than typical bc skis. The thing is, models change from year to year. Hopefully someone on this forum with better experience can comment. Or try Epicski forum--they were helpful for me.

Have you thought about just getting a pair of Nordic skis, like say Fischer SL crowns--not too expensive, great stiff camber-- and then keeping your current bc set up for off trail? But then you'd have to get a new pair of boots...

kryten
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:22 pm

I already have bc boots and bindings, that is why I'm not looking at classic nordic skis. I would also use these for offtrack exploring the woods here.

kryten
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:19 pm

Regarding the above mentioned Fisher Spider 62 skis in post 1, does anyone have input on the sizing for me?

I'm looking at other options, but those are by far the cheapest route for me at the moment...Thanks.

pcfithian
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby pcfithian » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:35 pm

I've got a new pair of Madshus Voss MGV+ for sale here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4385

Or another option is the USGI Surplus skis from Colemans here: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4372

kryten
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:11 am

pcfithian wrote:I've got a new pair of Madshus Voss MGV+ for sale here: http://www.xcskiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4385

Or another option is the USGI Surplus skis from Colemans here: http://www.xcskiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4372


Unfortunately shipping to Canada would make those skis more expensive than buying them locally. Those Asnes skis look nice, but not what I'm looking for at the moment. GLWS.

hegel
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby hegel » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:21 am

Madshus Glitterinds size way longer than comparable width Fischer or Rossignol skis. Longer skis glide better. I ended up getting shorter skis than Madshus recommended because they were on a terrific sale. But I only did this because the 'same' ski sold by Fischer and Rossignol--including the Spiders-- suggested a shorter length for my weight--exactly the same length as I bought in Madshus. So, possibly going longer in the Spider than what Fischer recommends will give you better glide and also less drag in the pocket.

Again, the trend in bc skis over the last decade has been to shorten the length for easier turning. People used to ski longer bc skis. Longer may work better on Nordic slopes.

Also, check out the "newb needs new skis" thread just down from this one.

kryten
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:09 pm

hegel wrote:Madshus Glitterinds size way longer than comparable width Fischer or Rossignol skis. Longer skis glide better. I ended up getting shorter skis than Madshus recommended because they were on a terrific sale. But I only did this because the 'same' ski sold by Fischer and Rossignol--including the Spiders-- suggested a shorter length for my weight--exactly the same length as I bought in Madshus. So, possibly going longer in the Spider than what Fischer recommends will give you better glide and also less drag in the pocket.

Again, the trend in bc skis over the last decade has been to shorten the length for easier turning. People used to ski longer bc skis. Longer may work better on Nordic slopes.

Also, check out the "newb needs new skis" thread just down from this one.


Thanks Hegel.

That makes sense. According to Fischer I should be on 179's, but testing the skis in the store it seems like even 189's (for over 85kg, I'm about 75kg with a light pack) are a bit soft and will drag a bit of the fish scale.

I was looking for confirmation I'm not making a mistake getting the 189's and that my measurements described in post 1 don't have an error in them.

osloskier
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby osloskier » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:17 pm

hegel wrote:I don't think that you can have both back country and nordic features combined perfectly in one ski. A full metal edged ski that's oriented, almost by definition, for back country use, no matter how narrow, just isn't going to glide as well as a nordic ski. Again, back country skis want a softer camber for increased turning ability. This will result in drag.


That's true, but you can actually get metal edged skis with a full camber. Åsnes Holmenkollen is getting good reviews and has a full XC camber and 3/4 steel edges. So that is a ski which ought to suit kryten's requirements very well. It will not turn well at all, but will have very good glide, be able to handle crust and ice well, and be good for breaking trail. It has been used to ski across Greenland and to the South Pole, so it has to be a fairly robust ski ;)

It may be that trying to combine a ski that's skinny enough for Nordic AND solid enough for bc is impossible. You may end up with skis that function very poorly in both situations.


You can get skinny enough for Nordic and solid enough for BC, but the skinnier ski will not be as good in deep snow, and there is the tradeoff that you mentioned.

One relatively new trend is to use real sealskins on skis with little camber, like they did a hundred years ago. Sealskin is very pricey, but supposedly glides as well as blue swix in cold, loose snow.

kryten
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby kryten » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:15 pm

osloskier wrote:
hegel wrote:I don't think that you can have both back country and nordic features combined perfectly in one ski. A full metal edged ski that's oriented, almost by definition, for back country use, no matter how narrow, just isn't going to glide as well as a nordic ski. Again, back country skis want a softer camber for increased turning ability. This will result in drag.


That's true, but you can actually get metal edged skis with a full camber. Åsnes Holmenkollen is getting good reviews and has a full XC camber and 3/4 steel edges. So that is a ski which ought to suit kryten's requirements very well. It will not turn well at all, but will have very good glide, be able to handle crust and ice well, and be good for breaking trail. It has been used to ski across Greenland and to the South Pole, so it has to be a fairly robust ski ;)

It may be that trying to combine a ski that's skinny enough for Nordic AND solid enough for bc is impossible. You may end up with skis that function very poorly in both situations.


You can get skinny enough for Nordic and solid enough for BC, but the skinnier ski will not be as good in deep snow, and there is the tradeoff that you mentioned.

One relatively new trend is to use real sealskins on skis with little camber, like they did a hundred years ago. Sealskin is very pricey, but supposedly glides as well as blue swix in cold, loose snow.


Thanks, I will find out if I can find a dealer that carries Asnes skis locally.

Do you know how does Vikafjell compare to Holmenkollen by a chance? Both seem to have 3/4 metal edges and according to the website, I would ski 195cm for both. Not sure if they are waxless etc.

osloskier
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Re: Help sizing Fischer Spider 62 Crown skis.

Postby osloskier » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:45 pm

Vikafjell is heavier, wider, has less camber and is less expensive. I'll bet Holmenkollen will make you grin more often, but it will also be more demanding techniquewise. But Vikafjell is also a light BC ski that can be skied with good technique. The heavier expedition type skis tend to only be possible to walk with, not run. That's sloooow.

Both of them are waxable, and both have mounting points for skins (and that's how it should be, in my opinion. Waxing is usually easy and is better when it works. If conditions are difficult, just use skins :)


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