Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Skis, Boots and Pole Reviews and Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Group

osloskier
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:28 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby osloskier » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:41 pm

Sounds like a good plan to me. The cold ski should work well up to almost zero.

I've heard people say that when ironed in, blocks like tk-72 can last as long as powder. That would be somewhere around 50 km or more. When corked it glides better, but only lasts 5 km or so.

I haven't tested this myself. What I have tested is CH + HF + Swix HVC on top of a Kuzmin structure. I deliberately left 5 cm at the rear of one of the front glide surfaces (classic ski) without HVC to check the durability. After 20 km, water drops placed on the ski would start rolling at an angle of approx 10-15 degrees, and stop when they hit the area that had only HF. Around 30-35 degrees was needed to get them rolling again. So the HVC was still very much present. The effect on the glide was also significant.

poimax05
xcskiforum 10K
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby poimax05 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:22 pm

So the HVC has such durability (about 50km) without any ironing ? Or only with ironing ?

It is quite expensive at 225$ CAD. But if it really lasts 50km and does not require any ironing ( no need of a mask and health risk), then it may worth it

A website says the bottle is good for 10-12 pair of skate skis. 10 x 50 km = 600km. 600 /20km per day = 30 days of skiing. 225/30 = 7.3 per day. It's not that bad if it really makes a difference! But of course on top of that I need to put HF.

The Rex Tk-72 looks interesting but will be very hard to find here in Canada. (looks to be a Finish company).

What do you think of this product ?

http://www.kuusport.ca/product/kuu-kf-f ... r15-grams/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuKaN8kFMP0

Price is not that bad... Not too sure who many pairs it is good for. What is durability of fluoro powders ? is it better than HVC ?

Blah
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:43 am

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby Blah » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:02 pm

Ironing in a block can significantly increase it's durability but it will never last as long as a powder. Corking it can get you closer to 20 km.

Liquids typically last only about 2km's. There are some liquids out there that last much longer like Vauhti liquids, Start FHF1, Swix HVC, Gallium, and others. The humidity levels must be much higher for liquids to run well than they need to be for blocks or powders. Also they have a much higher liability for picking up dirt and for possibly slowing the skis down.

If you are going to invest in some fluor don't by cheap knock offs like the ones you linked, you get what you pay for. Also you need to look at what conditions you are buying this for. Is is cold, warm or wet snow? New or old? Humid or drier? Different fluors work well in different conditions. Swix HVC and Rex TK-72 are very different products.

poimax05
xcskiforum 10K
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby poimax05 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:26 am

Well, considering I want something durable, Fluoro powder seems the way to go. Swix FC6X would be a good product I think. Looking at the price, considering it has 30g of powder, it is about the same price as the other products I mentionned (kuu TNT, which comes in a 15g pack).

If I use HF6 underneath and iron it, it should last 50k + per application ? HF wax really makes a difference in durability ?

Problem is the 165 degrees C application... I have to check if my iron can do it. The Kuu TNT only requires 145.

If I am in a ventilated room and do only 1 ski pair, is a respirator still mandatory when working with powder ?

Blah
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:43 am

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby Blah » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:39 am

poimax05 wrote:Well, considering I want something durable, Fluoro powder seems the way to go. Swix FC6X would be a good product I think. Looking at the price, considering it has 30g of powder, it is about the same price as the other products I mentionned (kuu TNT, which comes in a 15g pack).

If I use HF6 underneath and iron it, it should last 50k + per application ? HF wax really makes a difference in durability ?

Problem is the 165 degrees C application... I have to check if my iron can do it. The Kuu TNT only requires 145.

If I am in a ventilated room and do only 1 ski pair, is a respirator still mandatory when working with powder ?


Swix FC 6x is probably their best new powder. Don't use it unless you are in the recommended temp ranges. Yes, use a HF wax beneath it.

Most irons go to around 160 C and you should be able to get the job done using an iron at that heat.

Absolutely wear a ventilation mask when ironing any waxes.

osloskier
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:28 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby osloskier » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:03 am

poimax05:

I think you're going in the wrong direction.

For training, you only need glide that is sufficient to get the speed up. Some resistance is good. Two pairs of decent skis with different structures, a couple of rillers and CH wax can take care of this. Of course you also want to know how fast you can go with a full race prep, but no one does that for day to day training.

Buy some quality skis first, instead of trying to repair poor glide with powder. It doesn't make much difference if the ski and structure is wrong.

Powder is very expensive, not just due to the price but because you have to use quite a bit of it. Think $30 per pair or so for HF and powder. Blocks are popular because they last long enough to make a difference for shorter races and the block lasts for many applications. That's why I suggested a block if you are dead set on seeing how fast you can go. But it will only make a difference when you have a ski that matches the conditions.

All I can say about HVC is that it certainly lasted for 20 km without any problems. That was in fresh snow, I don't know how it behaves in abrasive snow yet. Supposedly it binds chemically to fluorocarbons already present on the ski, so you need HF underneath it to make it stick. And you need CH underneath the HF to make the HF stick. It's a fluid, you just paint it on. It evaporates almost immediately, and the ski is ready.

In addition to the skis you mentioned, Madshus' mid-range skis have a good reputation for value, particularly the Hypersonic.

Chris
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:24 am

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby Chris » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:18 am

osloskier wrote:For training, you only need glide that is sufficient to get the speed up. Some resistance is good.


While I wouldn't spend the money on powders and HF wax for training, in general I don't agree that resistance is good. Having skis for training that match race skis would be preferable due to specificity and learning to ski efficiently at race pace. However, it just isn't economically feasible for the vast majority of us. For adding resistance I use hills.

For these same reasons I generally try to match roller ski speed to snow ski speed.

osloskier
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:28 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby osloskier » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:02 pm

Chris: I've thought about it and I agree that resistance isn't good in itself. I try to get good glide myself, and I've bought faster rollerski tires. But I don't think the relatively small difference between CH glider on otherwise correct skis/structure and a full race prep matters for the vast majority of training, and I don't think it makes any sense to buy powders before you have at least two good pairs of skis to choose from.

MN Hoser
Ski Forum God
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby MN Hoser » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:08 pm

Spring is quickly approaching, so some shops will have some steep discounts on waxes, even 50%. The nature of your questions suggest that a couple HF waxes and a pure fluoro block would be good for your racing. If you're not racing, don't get sucked into the pure fluoro thing. Skis can be plenty fast with CH and low fluoro waxes to be fun. If you want some high fluoros for non-racing, you should talk to some serious racers. I think all have some old HF waxes they'd love to sell for cheap. I was just given an old 150g (170g?) brick of Toko HF blue and some Solda 40 HF something or other (a cold one I believe). After a while, you find there are certain waxes you like to use and a bunch of others you bought (searching for speed) but don't use...at least I don't. I've been trying to use some HF waxes on local "golf course" races.

You should go to the Boulder Nordic website and read their magazine.

http://catalyst.ipaperus.com/Fall2013iP ... BONOCOF13/

It has a lot of info on which you're asking questions.

As for Fischer skis, they have mainly two different bases (cold and warm, which they call plus) and a couple different flexes, which they call molds. So in a skate ski, you can buy a Carbonite Skate Plus ski, and it may have a 610 mold (for medium and soft conditions) and a plus base...or you can get a Skate Cold have a cold base. There is also a Carbonlite Skate ski with a 115 mold (for medium and hard track conditions), so it's important to know both the mold and the base material when you purchase. The plus base is more of a universal base that can be used in cold and warm conditions. The cold base (in my opinion) is a little harder to get up to race speed and slower to initially take on wax, but in very cold and sharp snow conditions, the base can be slightly faster. Ironically, my cold base 610 Fischers are fast in warm hard track conditions.

Jay

poimax05
xcskiforum 10K
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby poimax05 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:53 pm

Ok got it. I'll stay away from powders and will stay on CH waxes for the time being. Thanks for getting me back on the right track. i was desperate when I started looking at powders, I was coming back from a terrible skate session on ungroomed fresh cold snow (-10 deg C )... Things were much better on sunday with -4. I was going faster in classic with the Charriot... hehe

-Where would you guys trace the line between cold and warm snow ? How many deg C roughly ? I am sure cold skis is what I need for Quebec winter, but I am curious. I would use them down to -10 deg C, below which I will switch to classic due to poor glide.

-Also, if I buy a roller tool, is the universal roller included enough (or do I have to buy another roller ) ? Would this riller from Swix be a good choice ? At what temperature should I start using it ? As opposed to high fluor powder, this is something that make sense for training, right ?

http://www.swixsport.ca/p/super-riller- ... AmGM8P8HAQ


Thanks for the boulder Magazine link. I will read it to educate myself further.

User avatar
jt10000
World Cup
Posts: 522
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:56 am
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby jt10000 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:00 am

Whether to use pure fluoro when not racing depends a bit on how strong you are and how tough the snow and terrain are. My wife has very little strength/power to skate and only got on skis late in life. But she likes it. Having good glide is important with her, otherwise everyday skiing is that much harder. She can't muscle through and have fun like most of us do if the snow is slow.

I'll add that I used a fluoro rub on block on her skis fairly often when she was skiing a lot and there was going to be a lot moisture in the snow. It's not expensive on a per-use basis (possibly cheaper than HF), and she rarely skis more than 15K at a time so it lasted long enough. And I rolled on structure too.

This wasn't a full "race prep" in the sense that it was just a layer of LF plus block. But her skis get a lot of hotwaxing (once every 30K at most - that is, once every two or three outings) and pure flouro from time to time. Never racing. Not even training. Just skiing for fun.

Her skis are Fischer RCS Juniors for all around use, with a fairly cold grind, and have been good from old snow and 0F up to freezing.
Temporary Signature ---- http://bit.ly/2hKgHk7 ----- Temporary Signature

rilo
xcskiforum 10K
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:48 pm

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby rilo » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:50 am

My primary skate skis are a stiff pair of Fischer RCR's and for most of the season here in Maine, when conditions are cold and often hard, very hard (especially in the long dry freeze that often seems to follow the January thaw), these skis are bomber. But, when March rolls around and the snow starts to get wet and soft, they're too stiff and no matter what I put on or did to the bases, they would bog down and lower my fun factor. So last year I picked up a used pair of Madshus Nanosonic's with the 119 mold, and in the wet conditions of spring, they're a revelation. Instead of the tips diving in, they float up. And with shorter pressure zones they glide in wet conditions where my hard pack skis would not. In harder conditions they're squirrelly, but in the wet stuff they're spot on, and fun!

Blah
xcskiforum 40K
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:43 am

Re: Questions on Skis for Specific Temperature

Postby Blah » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:26 pm

If you are going to compare apples to apples the Rossi comparison to the skis you mentioned is the Xium.

Fluor powder should last around 50km or longer depending on how abrasive the snow is.

Burning fluors into your ski can produce toxic gas, although it has been discussed lately that all wax fumes may be harmful. It can clog the pores of your base so you want to brush your skis thoroughly with a soft steel or copper brush before re-waxing. You could potentially seal your bases shut by using too much heat when melting the powders although it is more likely you would do this ironing in a cold paraffin wax.


Return to “XC Ski Gear Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest