Skin skis taking over?

Skis, Boots and Pole Reviews and Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Group

User avatar
Neuro
World Cup
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:56 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Skin skis taking over?

Postby Neuro » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:21 am

In the best (and oldest) sports shop here in Oslo they only sell top of the line stuff. Not just because lack of space, it's just their thing. You go there to get help from people who know and to get the best gear. It costs more but that's the deal.

I was there now and the XC skis are out. Guess what? Skin skis have taken up center position in the room. Overhearing a seller talking to a customer and he said it's just going to be skin skis except for competition from now on.

I believe it. There was a time for wax skis, and now there's the skin ski era.

And I bet even in amateur racing competition skin skis will soon become the norm, especially longer ones with variable conditions. Birkebeinerrennet (the one held on Friday, the day before the main one) has already been won on skins.

With the new binding that's easily moveable and better products for the skins, there's really no reason for anyone to get wax skis anymore, don't you think?

User avatar
dcpattie
xcskiforum 50K
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:33 pm
Location: Nordic Virginia

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby dcpattie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:38 am

Do any of the current skin skis allow for the 'skin' section to be totally removed and replaced with a flat surface which could be glide waxed for DP courses?
Dave in Nordic Virginia

User avatar
Magnus Johansson
World Cup
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:21 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:44 am

Neuro wrote:With the new binding that's easily moveable and better products for the skins, there's really no reason for anyone to get wax skis anymore, don't you think?

Yes, except for elite racers. I also believe glide waxing is a thing of the past in the same manner, now when base scrapers and structuring tools are common. Cross-country skiing will become more accessible through these changes.

User avatar
Magnus Johansson
World Cup
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:21 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:52 am

dcpattie wrote:Do any of the current skin skis allow for the 'skin' section to be totally removed and replaced with a flat surface which could be glide waxed for DP courses?

I believe you can achieve that already with Atomic skin skis that have the skins glued onto ski base inserts you can easily exchange. I asked Atomic if they will offer inserts without skins but they didn't answer.

User avatar
Neuro
World Cup
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:56 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby Neuro » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:40 am

dcpattie wrote:Do any of the current skin skis allow for the 'skin' section to be totally removed and replaced with a flat surface which could be glide waxed for DP courses?

Yes, the Atomic Redster skins are fastened magnetically which means changing is done in seconds, so you could switch between a skin and an insert which you've scraped the hairs off and glide waxed, even in races. I've seen people planning to do this for Vasaloppet. They don't sell hair free inserts AFAIK.

But as is talked about in this video, the upcoming Rottefella Move System will be an alternative where you just move the binding back for the DP sections, preventing the skin from touching the snow.

trotro
xcskiforum 10K
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 7:08 am

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby trotro » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:00 am

What do you think of this move? From what you've said it seems like a good thing cutting down waxing complexity. Don't you still need glid wax for the rest of the ski though?

It seems like these small, removable skins would be ideal for nordic touring skis as well. Clip out skin, clip in base.

(Note: I know nothing about waxing skis or classic technique)

User avatar
Magnus Johansson
World Cup
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:21 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:27 am

trotro wrote:Don't you still need glid wax for the rest of the ski though?

If you are not an elite racer I don't think glide wax is necessary. The glide one can achieve with base scraping and structuring is enough for almost everyone.

User avatar
JeffOYB
Ski Forum God
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:44 pm
Location: Williamston, MI
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby JeffOYB » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:43 pm

Magnus Johansson wrote:
trotro wrote:Don't you still need glid wax for the rest of the ski though?

If you are not an elite racer I don't think glide wax is necessary. The glide one can achieve with base scraping and structuring is enough for almost everyone.


This is effectively the same. The question might as well be "Don't you still have to work to make the glide parts of the ski work well?"

The answer may not be waxing for much longer but it will still require work to make the skis fast and to keep them fast and to adapt to different temperature ranges.

Sure, we might not be waxing but we might as well be -- we'll be scraping and stucturing. And since scrapers are only good for a few sessions there might be an ongoing expensive similar to waxing.

...It sure would be nice to get rid of the toxic fluoros!

What's the cheapest decent-quality way I can try out this new waxless glide prep method? ...It relates to Kuzmin, right? I'll need a sharp scraper.

Now, the word is that "except for elites" scraping will be fine. Well, I notice awesome results quite often from fluoro glidewaxes. Will scraping deliver this?

Yes, I understand that ski flex and structure are as impt as waxing or more so but I have the skis that I have and I often find that a good fluoro wax job makes them rocketships. And that's what I like!

Anyway, any thrifty way to try out this Kuzmin stuff? Any chance that I could sharpen a very thick cabinet-type scraper well enough at home? ...I have a bar of heavy steel that I could hone to a razor 90-deg edge. Well, it would use the same standards as razor sharpening.
Jeff Potter
http://OutYourBackDoor.com
indie outdoor adventure, culture, heritage
...bikes, boats, skis, luggage, media & more!

User avatar
Magnus Johansson
World Cup
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:21 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:49 am

JeffOYB wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:
trotro wrote:Don't you still need glid wax for the rest of the ski though?

If you are not an elite racer I don't think glide wax is necessary. The glide one can achieve with base scraping and structuring is enough for almost everyone.


This is effectively the same. The question might as well be "Don't you still have to work to make the glide parts of the ski work well?"

No, it is not the same. Waxing and scraping are different methods. They can be combined, but they are still different methods.

User avatar
JeffOYB
Ski Forum God
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:44 pm
Location: Williamston, MI
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby JeffOYB » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:30 am

Magnus Johansson wrote:
JeffOYB wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:If you are not an elite racer I don't think glide wax is necessary. The glide one can achieve with base scraping and structuring is enough for almost everyone.


This is effectively the same. The question might as well be "Don't you still have to work to make the glide parts of the ski work well?"

No, it is not the same. Waxing and scraping are different methods. They can be combined, but they are still different methods.


Of course they are physically different. That's not the point. The point is they take time, they cost money, they have to be fit and adjusted to conditions... In short they're not meaningfully different. ...It's a nonskiing "lab" part of skiing that can easily be a game-changer. I'm not sure it removes the problem that waxing is said to be for popularity. "Here, you don't have to spend time/money waxing anymore! Now you just get to spend time/money scraping!" ...Hopefully it lasts longer than waxes -- unless conditions change. And hopefully it's easier to get it right and is more versatile. Also it's not toxic! ...But I don't want to make a big deal: if this new technology is cheaper, simpler, more versatile, less toxic, hey it's all to the good!

About the moving bindings... A ski trail naturally and quickly flows through lots of transitions. Only a remote electronic way of moving the binding is going to be convenient or quick enough to fit into the flow of a ski outing. ...Will this be crazy $ and complex? We'll see!
Jeff Potter
http://OutYourBackDoor.com
indie outdoor adventure, culture, heritage
...bikes, boats, skis, luggage, media & more!

User avatar
Magnus Johansson
World Cup
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:21 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:11 pm

JeffOYB wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:
JeffOYB wrote:
This is effectively the same. The question might as well be "Don't you still have to work to make the glide parts of the ski work well?"

No, it is not the same. Waxing and scraping are different methods. They can be combined, but they are still different methods.


Of course they are physically different. That's not the point. The point is they take time, they cost money, they have to be fit and adjusted to conditions... In short they're not meaningfully different. ...

They are meaningfully different. Beside that, Trotro asked about waxing, so let's not obscure the original question.

User avatar
JeffOYB
Ski Forum God
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:44 pm
Location: Williamston, MI
Contact:

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby JeffOYB » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:22 am

what's cheapest scraper out there that will give glide like glide-waxing?
Jeff Potter
http://OutYourBackDoor.com
indie outdoor adventure, culture, heritage
...bikes, boats, skis, luggage, media & more!

User avatar
Neuro
World Cup
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:56 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Skin skis taking over?

Postby Neuro » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:44 am

I believe it's as much to do with brushing as well. Just a few strokes of brushing should help keep the glide of a scraped ski, so the scraping need not be done that often, I think I saw somewhere just a couple of times a season was enough.


Return to “XC Ski Gear Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest