Sundby's DQ

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davidb
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Sundby's DQ

Postby davidb » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:52 pm

Martin Sundby was DQd recently for skating in a classic race. I saw the video of his alleged violation and I really don't get it. My understanding is that you get one skate when changing direction;he was clearly changing direction as he pushed off. Can someone explain this to me?

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby Montana » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:20 pm

Can you link to the video of that incident?
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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby DMK » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:38 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbgjUrdOvaA

I count 4 marathon skate pushes, with tracks present. Maybe they have been lax in this area in recent years but to me that is an obvious DQ.

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby liège » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:54 am

The issue is that there are tracks there, and it was [ostensibly] possible to ski that curve with both skis in the tracks. According to the press, Sundby was one of/the only person who skied the turn with skate kicks.

Here is a link to an article that has the video: http://www.nrk.no/sport/juryen_-derfor- ... 1.12652545

FIS is cracking down very hard on skating in classic races, and trying to prevent the trend of double-poling courses (where the herringbone often transitions to diagonal skate). At a conference in Trondheim this summer, Vegard Ulvang had several suggestions about how to make sure skiers were classic skiing and not just double-poling; some of the brainstorms included "striding only" sections of race courses, or having to ski the first 500m of a race no-poles(!). In the end, new jury rules allow two members of the jury, who both agree that a skating transgression has occurred, to DSQ an athlete without video evidence or meeting with the athlete.

At that same meeting, Vidar Løfshus suggested that the jury in Beitostølen be very strict, so it's no surprise that Sundby learned the line.

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby davidb » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:54 am

I agree with most of this, particularly, the idea that herringbone often transitions to diagonal skating; I see that a lot (and it pisses me off,) but are you guys telling me you don't push off when the outside ski leaves the track during a turn, or that when changing tracks, there aren't two distinct "skates" as your direction changes; once as you transition to the new track and then another when your direction changes back?

Personally, I'm going to stop using this so called "skating," in long corners, but I can sure understand Sundby's POV.

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby TooHeavy » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:43 am

Well you are not suppose to skate in a Classic race and what he is doing is the first Skating Technique ever used. The Marathon Skate. Not used now because the track if it exists, is too far from the most direct racing line and there are faster skate technique's now.

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby davidb » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:37 pm

I stand corrected: "Where there is a set track, turning techniques with pushing are not allowed...." (FIS 310,2.1.3 ; Gotta watch those pushoffs I guess.)

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby liège » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:55 am

Here are some clarifications, as presented by John Aalberg this weekend:
http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/docu ... nglish.pdf

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby davidb » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:43 pm

I recently viewed a very short video that, I think, was intended to show justification for a number of DQs meted out for skating at the Norwegian national championships (Men's relay, I think.). The shot was of a tight right hand, uphill corner that clearly did not have "set tracks". A few guys were herringboning, but most skated. When the tracks appeared the skating stopped. Looked very OK to me. Can anyone explain this ?
(Sorry, can't relocate the video if I can find it I'll post a link)

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:05 am

davidb wrote:I recently viewed a very short video that, I think, was intended to show justification for a number of DQs meted out for skating at the Norwegian national championships (Men's relay, I think.). The shot was of a tight right hand, uphill corner that clearly did not have "set tracks". A few guys were herringboning, but most skated. When the tracks appeared the skating stopped. Looked very OK to me. Can anyone explain this ?
(Sorry, can't relocate the video if I can find it I'll post a link)

It is not allowed to skate stride except for making necessary changes of direction.

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby JeffOYB » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:39 am

I see a previous post's remark from Ulvang about trying to get more classic into classic races, so they aren't just doublepole races. I heartily agree! Isn't the only way to just include more uphills of the sort that are faster if you stride than if you do the ugly "froggy hump"-DP struggle-move?? ...Yet not so steep that they force the also-ugly herringbone. I mean Hbone can be nice but in minor doses. always good to include a fair bit of h-bone, of course.

also, uphill corners provoke one of the prettier techniques: the swing-tail stride. ...what's its official name?

(I also note that there's a variant of herringbone where you get a glide but not while you're kicking. to me gliding during kicking is the definition of skating. the striding herringbone is NOT the diagonal skate at all! the ski stops, grips, uses the kickwax -- but glides to the side to use a lower angle of attack on the hill. it's beautiful -- but it's banned. Really, the rule is not against skating and in favor of classic -- it is against gliding your ski not straight down the trail. that is not the def of skating and it is banning a classic technique. ...but I've ranted about this before! :-) )
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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby davidb » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:17 am

Magnus-
I agree completely, but this was a sharp right hand corner, no tracks;( "change of direction" was required to stay out of the woods.)
Video was a side bar on "Ski Lines." Can't link for some reason.

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Re: Sundby's DQ

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:01 am

davidb wrote:Magnus-
I agree completely, but this was a sharp right hand corner, no tracks;( "change of direction" was required to stay out of the woods.)
Video was a side bar on "Ski Lines." Can't link for some reason.

Then I believe it is OK to make skate strides with the left ski pushing with its inner edge, and the right ski pushing with its outer edge.

Is this the video?: https://youtu.be/SBPEzmDVsag


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