Therese Johaug doped

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Magnus Johansson
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Therese Johaug doped

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:58 pm

First Martin Johnsrud Sundby and now Therese Johaug. Are there people in FIS that are tired of seeing them winning all the time? Perhaps it isn't good for the business. Is it all about the money or just coincidences?

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby MN Hoser » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:05 pm

I'd like to see the article(s) you are referencing.

Jay

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby skiffrace » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:38 pm

Therese Johaug

She is very, very pretty. They should give her at least one minute handicap for her looks, and maybe another minute for the pretty costume, so she could win without doping.

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby Magnus Johansson » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:20 am

MN Hoser wrote:I'd like to see the article(s) you are referencing.

Jay

I am not referencing any particular article but here is what Swedish Television wrote yesterday: http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/the ... -preparat/

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby dcpattie » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:13 am

Dave in Nordic Virginia

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby skiffrace » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:47 am

After reading the articles above, the entire affair becomes more ambiguous rather than clear.
1. According to this article http://www.svt.se/sport/therese-johaug/experten-en-langsokt-forklaring/ , it is unlikely that the tiny amount of clostebol Therese would have absorbed through lip balm could have been detected by anti-doping test.
2. Furthermore, it is even more unlikely that tiny amount would have made any noticeable difference in her performance.
3. Hence, if she indeed doped with clostebol, it would have been delivered through a different pathway, and the lip balm is a smoke screen.
4. However, one wonders why an athlete in an endurance sport, where it is disadvantageous to carry extra weight, would like to bulk-up her muscles. Asthma medication Sundby was allegedly using would have been more effective to improve cross-country skiing performance.
More questions than answers...

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby MN Hoser » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:34 am

According to this study in Clinic Chemistry, it seems likely that topical treatment would result in a positive test.

http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/50/2/456

There are a number of things that don't make sense.

1. She listed trofodermin, on a form listing what medications she was using.

http://fasterskier.com/blog/article/joh ... am-doctor/

2. The packing says very clearly it contains clostebol

https://www.ski-lines.com/articles/2328 ... -packaging

3. It's very easy to find this is a banned substance

http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads ... ist-en.pdf

4. Previous positive tests have claimed the positive was due to sex with a partner using a vaginal cream with clostebol, and the IOC (and probably FIS) don't really care how or why the positive occurred. Positive = enforcement.

All I can think is, "Never underestimate the stupidity of people."

Its seems we're now moving from positives that were the decision of the athletes to positives that are the decisions of those overseeing the athletes. The whole Russian doping scandal smacks of a top-down, get in line or your support is cut, doping effort. Yeah, there may have been a way for the athletes to quit or move out of Russian and compete, but it sounds like there was a lot of pressure to dope or get out.

The Norway case (Sundby and Johaug) is harder to judge. It's hard to judge if the coaches are "pushing the envelope" or just stupid. It's hard to know if the risk was communicated to the athletes or not. (I'd argue it appears not.) It's hard to know if these banned substances, even taken intentionally, could really have much measurable positive effect at low doses. Let's pick a number of 1 second/km advantage. It's a huge risk to lose two years of competing to gain 1 second/km.


Jay

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:22 am

Anti-Doping Norway doesn't suspend Therese Johaug immediately although FIS regulations say that it should: http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/nor ... ug-direkt/
Last edited by Magnus Johansson on Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby TooHeavy » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:11 pm

Well she could probably use a two year vacation. Play with the bull you get the horn in the butt.

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby skiffrace » Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:28 pm

Well she could probably use a two year vacation. Play with the bull you get the horn in the butt.

But what if she is indeed innocent, and the incident is due to carelesness/stupidity of her coach..?
The amount and nature of the doping agent suggest the above a real possibility..

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:02 am

skiffrace wrote:But what if she is indeed innocent, and the incident is due to carelesness/stupidity of her coach..?
The amount and nature of the doping agent suggest the above a real possibility..

I believe Johaug is innocent in that sense that she didn't take clostebol intentionally and that it actually comes from the lip balm. She has however now learned an important lesson: Don't just trust so-called experts. Examine things yourself. Read at least what it says on the package. Don't be a cross-country skiing fool.

I am more uncertain when it comes to the team doctor Fredrik Bendiksen. Is he a case of what Jay quoted ("Never underestimate the stupidity of people") or was he interested in making Johaug appear like a cheater?

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby dcpattie » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:23 am

skiffrace wrote:
Well she could probably use a two year vacation. Play with the bull you get the horn in the butt.

But what if she is indeed innocent, and the incident is due to carelesness/stupidity of her coach..?
The amount and nature of the doping agent suggest the above a real possibility..


Also, why is the coach giving her the cream unboxed? I don't care if I'm an elite athlete or a billionaire - I'm only using a product in its original packaging (especially for the first time). She has to take some responsibility.
Last edited by dcpattie on Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby skiffrace » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:50 am

Also, why is the coaching giving her the cream unboxed? ...I'm only using a product in its original packaging (especially for the first time)...

You have a medical problem (badly burned lips) Your coach - a person with whom you have a relationship of authority and trust, comes to you and says "use this, it will help". You'd reply "no, because it's not in the original packaging" ?

I am more uncertain when it comes to the team doctor Fredrik Bendiksen. Is he a case of what Jay quoted ("Never underestimate the stupidity of people") or was he interested in making Johaug appear like a cheater?

I think we need to use Occam's Razor here. The coach heard/read somewhere that medicine is very effective (likely true, due to its steroid content)
He assumed the tiny amount won't show up on the drug test and decided the pros (efectiveness) greatly outweigh the cons (a very small [so he thought] chance of detection)

I'd be careful with the word "stupidity". In typical usage that's other people's mistakes, ours are "errors of judgement"

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:54 am

dcpattie wrote:Also, why is the coaching giving her the cream unboxed? I don't care if I'm an elite athlete or a billionaire - I'm only using a product in its original packaging (especially for the first time). She has to take some responsibility.

Yes, I agree with that, Dave, but wasn't it the team doctor Fredrik Bendiksen who gave the balm to Johaug? If so, and if he gave it to her without original packaging, this increases my suspicions against him. Who is this Fredrik Bendiksen?

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Re: Therese Johaug doped

Postby Magnus Johansson » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:33 am

According to http://www.svd.se/expert-norsk-skidspor ... on?ref=yfp Johaug got the tube of balm with the outer packaging. She didn't read the warning on the packaging and threw it away. Former WADA director Harri Syväsalmi is critical against Anti-Doping Norway for not having suspended Johaug. Anti-Doping Norway's investigation can take up to 6 weeks. Why can't FIS suspend Johaug from international competitions?


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