Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:58 am

FIS has now imposed provisional suspensions on the six Russian skiers: http://www.fis-ski.com/news-multimedia/ ... kiers.html

I wrote to FIS about the glaring lack of scientific stringency in the forensic examination of Christophe Champod, but obviously that didn't have enough effect.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:28 pm

Let's start with the standards. So WADA

2.2.1
It is each Athlete's personal duty to ensure that no Prohibited substance enters his or her body.....is is not necessary that intent, fault, negligence or knowing use on the Athlete's part be demonstrated....
2.2.2
The success or failure of the Use or Attempted Use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is not material....
2.5
The following constitute anti-doping rule violations:
[...] Tampering or Attempted Tampering with any part of Doping Control.
2.8
....assisting...aiding....covering up...an anti-doping rule violation or attempted anti-doping rule violation.

3.1
The Anti-doping organization shall have the burden of establishing that an anti-doping rule violation has occurred. The standard of proof shall be whether the anti-doping organization has established an anti-doping rule violation to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel bearing in mind the seriousness of the allegation which is made. The standard of proof in all cases is greater than a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

That last bit is important.

There are a whole bunch of other standards such as if an athlete is found guilty, the team may also suffer the consequences. They state that in this case, they are not trying to pursue that even though the information suggests many (100s?) of Russian Athletes may be involved.

Jay

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:57 am

MN Hoser wrote:Let's start with the standards. So WADA

2.2.1
It is each Athlete's personal duty to ensure that no Prohibited substance enters his or her body.....is is not necessary that intent, fault, negligence or knowing use on the Athlete's part be demonstrated....
2.2.2
The success or failure of the Use or Attempted Use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is not material....
2.5
The following constitute anti-doping rule violations:
[...] Tampering or Attempted Tampering with any part of Doping Control.
2.8
....assisting...aiding....covering up...an anti-doping rule violation or attempted anti-doping rule violation.

There is no problem with these rules.

MN Hoser wrote:
3.1
The Anti-doping organization shall have the burden of establishing that an anti-doping rule violation has occurred. The standard of proof shall be whether the anti-doping organization has established an anti-doping rule violation to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel bearing in mind the seriousness of the allegation which is made. The standard of proof in all cases is greater than a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

That last bit is important.

Interesting. So WADA thinks a reasonable doubt is satisfactory. That might explain why IOC's forensic studies didn't meet scientific standards.

MN Hoser wrote:There are a whole bunch of other standards such as if an athlete is found guilty, the team may also suffer the consequences.

Remarkable! Can you provide a link to this guilt-by-association rule?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:07 am

https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Docu ... LEGKOV.pdf

This is a 46 page summary. The rules (I call them standards since they are the standards to which the athlete is held) begin on pg 10.

As I re-read Art 9.1 (pg 13) it says... in sports which are not team sports but where awards are given to teams...
and Art 11.1 If a member of a team is found to have committed a violation...the team shall be disqualified
Art 11.1.1 An anti-doping rule violation by a member of a team occurring in connection with an event during which a team competition is held....

So it's unclear if the Russian ski team could be disqualified, or just the e.g. the relay team in which a member of the team competed.

Jay

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:41 am

MN Hoser wrote:https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document%20Library/OlympicOrg/IOC/Who-We-Are/Commissions/Disciplinary-Commission/2017/SML-006-Decision-Alexander-LEGKOV.pdf

This is a 46 page summary. The rules (I call them standards since they are the standards to which the athlete is held) begin on pg 10.

That is no summary of the rules but the decision of the IOC Disciplinary Commission where paragraphs 422 and 423 show the lack of methodological stringency I mentioned earlier.

MN Hoser wrote:As I re-read Art 9.1 (pg 13) it says... in sports which are not team sports but where awards are given to teams...
and Art 11.1 If a member of a team is found to have committed a violation...the team shall be disqualified
Art 11.1.1 An anti-doping rule violation by a member of a team occurring in connection with an event during which a team competition is held....

So it's unclear if the Russian ski team could be disqualified, or just the e.g. the relay team in which a member of the team competed.

Thanks, now I see. Of course a team members doping violation affects the effort of the whole team, so if e.g. Legkov really is guilty of a doping violation the Russian men's relay team in the 4 x 10 km event should be disqualified, but not the whole Russian cross-country team.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:35 am

It seems FIS have been more reluctant to use this as evidence for bans, but agreeing in some cases now.

Still just one guy and his notebook AFAICT. (who writes a diary of his crimes anyway?) He could easily have done the scraping too. Seems incredible it's all based on him. The potential for abuse and political shenanigans if something as big as this can be based on one person's involvement is massive.

My whole skepticism in this case has been the timing of it. There's a huge anti-Russian campaign in every area for the last year(s), and then suddenly there's a defector with a story to tell and a scandal to damn the whole country with scant evidence. It seemed just too convenient and smelled fishy from the start.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:45 pm

Magnus Johansson wrote:That is no summary of the rules but the decision of the IOC Disciplinary Commission where paragraphs 422 and 423 show the lack of methodological stringency I mentioned earlier.


1. It's a 46 page summary.
2. The rules begin on page 10 (that I was paraphrasing)

Please explain how paragraphs 422 and 423 (two sentences) show the lack of methodological stringency.

Jay

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:47 pm

Neuro wrote:Still just one guy and his notebook AFAICT. (who writes a diary of his crimes anyway?) He could easily have done the scraping too. Seems incredible it's all based on him. The potential for abuse and political shenanigans if something as big as this can be based on one person's involvement is massive.


How do you explain non-physiological salt levels being present in urine samples?

Jay

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:42 am

MN Hoser wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:That is no summary of the rules but the decision of the IOC Disciplinary Commission where paragraphs 422 and 423 show the lack of methodological stringency I mentioned earlier.


1. It's a 46 page summary.
2. The rules begin on page 10 (that I was paraphrasing)

Please explain how paragraphs 422 and 423 (two sentences) show the lack of methodological stringency.

No, it is the decision.Have you not read the name of the PDF file or the first page of the document?

Is it not obvious to you? Professor Christophe Champod did not test opening the bottles when they were fully closed. Being a professor and overlooking such an elementary thing is incredible.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:05 am

Neuro wrote:He could easily have done the scraping too.

Yes, to me it looks like a sort of false flag attack like e.g. the John F Kennedy assassination or 9/11 although not as deadly at this stage.

Neuro wrote:There's a huge anti-Russian campaign in every area for the last year(s), and then suddenly there's a defector with a story to tell and a scandal to damn the whole country with scant evidence. It seemed just too convenient and smelled fishy from the start.

Yes, the campaign is very obvious, and the mainstream media is as usual the most important tool to fool the masses. SVT (Swedish Television) has been like a CIA branch in this, stonewalling inconvenient questions. "The world is in a terrible shape because of the Jews." Bobby Fischer (1943-2008)

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:49 am

MN Hoser wrote:How do you explain non-physiological salt levels being present in urine samples?


Right, I see that some salt is found, but maybe that could be what was added when the bottles were opened. In itself it's a bit weird to have something as easily detectable as non-physiological salt when the whole thing was so intricate and samples were supposed to be changed with clean samples previously gathered.

The main thing here which seems to be forgotten is that all hinges on one man, where everything he has come up with is believed totally, even though the basic underlying premise is that he is a massive cheat and criminal.

FIS boss (secretary general Sarah Lewis), says it has until now been impossible to issue bans based on CAS findings without further proof. This in itself speaks volumes. Yet now they have done so in some cases even though nothing has changed in way of proof, they've just aligned following the IOC published sentence, and notably it's just a temporary ban until they will decided for themselves (meaning still doubtful).

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:04 am

Neuro wrote:
MN Hoser wrote:How do you explain non-physiological salt levels being present in urine samples?


Right, I see that some salt is found, but maybe that could be what was added when the bottles were opened. In itself it's a bit weird to have something as easily detectable as non-physiological salt when the whole thing was so intricate and samples were supposed to be changed with clean samples previously gathered.

Yes, why are there non-physiological salt levels when the purpose was to just swap samples to normal clean ones?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:27 am

I haven't read all the materials, but it sounds like:

-Dr Rodchenkov was director at the Moscow laboratory which was used for testing during the Sochi Olympics
-He gave very damning testimony about systematic Russian doping. Part of his credibility was a diary he kept that gave great detail. Part of his credibility is that his life is in danger regarding the information he presented and he's being protected by the FBI. (Last bit is my opinion.)
-His information, along with investigative reports by ARD TV and 60 minutes provided the basis for investigating Russian doping.
-To pull off the sample switches, there had to be a clean urine bank, the original bottles had to be removed, opened, urine swapped, and bottles returned
-There was also a drug cocktail (Duchess cocktail) and a list of protected athletes (Duchess list) which is much like the Operación Puerto list
-Various experts were hired to investigate particularly aspects of the case and they submitted reports.
The McLaren report on Sochi was particularly damning.
-Investigations and reports supported Rodchenkov's claims. Also, retesting of samples from Beijing and London games showed over 100 positives for oraltinabol from Russian athletes. This suggests systematic doping has been going on for years.
-Unfortunately, it sounds like athletes did not have a choice to participate in the program(s).
-Marks on bottles correlated with athletes on the Duchess list.
-In order to fill bottles with clean urine, the bottles the bottles had to have a specific gravity that was recorded when the sample was collected. In order adjust the specific gravity, water or salt was added. Reanalysis of samples showed some samples with salt levels that are not reasonable for a healthy person.
-Legov's "B" sample showed evidence of tampering (and that alone is basis for disqualification).
-The woman's ice hockey team was added to the Duchess list at the last minute, which may mean they did not have a supply of clean urine. DNA analysis of urine from two members of the hockey team showed the urine was from someone else.
-There is email evidence.

This is what I've gathered from reading half of the report.

Jay

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:05 am

MN Hoser wrote:This is what I've gathered from reading half of the report.

What report? Do you mean the IOC DC decision against Legkov?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Two more Russian skiers and a biathlete receive lifetime bans.

http://fasterskier.com/fsarticle/tcheka ... ses-grows/

Jay


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