Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

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Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby JeffOYB » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:18 am

Looking for a little on-topic summary without wanting to read the Professor's complete report.

My impression. Let me know if it's close...

Russia was exposed for huge problems so maybe it will be banned from the Olys. OFFHAND RESPONSE--This seems reasonable.

Several Russian winners from the last Olys have been stripped of their medals even though they have not been charged by name or identified as doing anything wrong. They don't personally have any positives for doping of any kind. OFFHAND RESPONSE--This seems unsupportable. ...Unless there are parts of doping policy that I haven't heard of and which I don't recall being invoked before that allow usual policy to be bypassed. Such as an explicit guilt by association clause. And the association can be just having the same team name. You don't have to live in the same place or use the same coaches. (Like how a famous Czech cyclocrosser Katerina Nash races the Worlds for Czech but married a US guy and lives in the US -- if Czechs got busted for something then she could also?)

Also, each nation manages its own doping control. OFFHAND RESPONSE--I didn't know this. Conflict?
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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:58 am

JeffOYB wrote:Russia was exposed for huge problems so maybe it will be banned from the Olys. OFFHAND RESPONSE--This seems reasonable.

No. Just like you, Jeff, say later on, this is based on guilt by association and should be deemed unreasonable.

JeffOYB wrote:Also, each nation manages its own doping control. OFFHAND RESPONSE--I didn't know this. Conflict?

I think doping controls of internationally active athletes ought to be done by an international agency.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:25 am

It's approaching a travesty. There should be no problem for anyone to sort out a fair reaction to hard evidence, but the lack of both is more than baffling.

About general doping control, the Johannes Durr case from Austria showed how bad the whole program is. I mean the guy passed 14 tests and his doping was easily detectable and he gave real samples.

In a fair world, there would be equally harsh reactions to the doping control management for their useless work, and with equally huge consequences. Even I could come up with a better system than what's been in use.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby JeffOYB » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:51 pm

Neuro wrote:...
In a fair world, there would be equally harsh reactions to the doping control management for their useless work, and with equally huge consequences. Even I could come up with a better system than what's been in use.


makes sense! let the testers serve bans as well! get another company in there.
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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby JeffOYB » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:53 pm

Magnus Johansson wrote:
JeffOYB wrote:Russia was exposed for huge problems so maybe it will be banned from the Olys. OFFHAND RESPONSE--This seems reasonable.

No. Just like you, Jeff, say later on, this is based on guilt by association and should be deemed unreasonable.


Well, it's guilt by the correct association, isn't it? If the overall Russian process was crooked then the overall Russian program should be banned. Or maybe just the Admin? If we can't ID any specific athletes then everyone else gets banned? Whoever was responsible in the chain of command for the "hole in the wall" that I recall reading about should be banned.

In this process so far it seems that only athletes, and the coaches and doctors who are related to the athletes, get in trouble. But that's going bottom > up. It might be interesting to see bans of Admin that don't involve athletes. ...If you can't ID an athlete then at any rate they get off. But if you CAN identify who is responsible for a lab building with a hole in a wall then you can convict everyone specifically relating to that. Admin runs these buildings, not the athletes. We need to see wider nets cast in these efforts! Right now who are the main ppl at risk?
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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:40 am

JeffOYB wrote:Well, it's guilt by the correct association, isn't it?

It is still guilt by association.

JeffOYB wrote:If the overall Russian process was crooked then the overall Russian program should be banned.

Not only the Russian program but Russia as a whole is what the Jews are going for. They are not really interested in individual athletes.

JeffOYB wrote:Whoever was responsible in the chain of command for the "hole in the wall" that I recall reading about should be banned.

I am interested in seeing proof that the hole in the wall ever existed.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:04 pm

This whole thread doesn't seem to match anything I've read. I find it interesting that people believe a conspiracy theory, that has no evidence, rather than well reasoned account that has witnesses and evidence.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:59 am

MN Hoser wrote:This whole thread doesn't seem to match anything I've read. I find it interesting that people believe a conspiracy theory, that has no evidence, rather than well reasoned account that has witnesses and evidence.

Jay

So, what have you read, Jay, and what conspiracy theory is believed here? Neither Neuro nor I have presented a conspiracy theory although I have strong suspicions who are involved. Have you read the McLaren report? Don't you find it suspicious that there are no testimonies from the Russian laboratory staff in the report? Have you seen any evidence of the notorious hole in the wall?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:13 am

FIS (International Ski Federation) anti-doping expert, doctor Rasmus Damsgaard says he's concerned about the lack of proof for latest group of Russians to be punished.

He says his organization have tested the athletes in question hundreds of times over many years and nothing has been found.

He even criticizes the whole McLaren report for lack of evidence, and says that if he had signed off the report as a scientist, his credentials should be revoked as it's not scientific.

He doesn't say there hasn't been doping, but one has to follow basic scientific principles and normal human rights.

In addition, he points out the single minded focus of only attacking Russia, calling it childish and damaging to the anti doping work, when for example the whole Kenyan anti-doping agency has been suspended while at the same time Kenyan athletes are winning all over the world and no one focuses on that.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:20 pm

http://fasterskier.com/fsarticle/ioc-po ... 50-k-gold/

Seems clear and consistent to me.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:08 am

MN Hoser wrote:http://fasterskier.com/fsarticle/ioc-posts-decision-rodchenkov-swapped-legkovs-sample-night-olympic-50-k-gold/

Seems clear and consistent to me.

Jay

I have started reading the decision but I have not read there that Rodchenkov said he swapped Legkov's samples. Where in the decision does it say so?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:59 am

The whole case is basically resting on scrape marks on vials and what the lab director said. Judging so many on circumstantial evidence is extreme. And why could it not just as easily be the director that's the cheat? $2 mill would see to that. What happened to benefit of the doubt?

Again, the anti doping agency should also be blamed. In something as huge as olympics, not taking blood samples and sealing them properly by several independent observers is just incredible. An 8-year old could come up with it, so why they didn't is beyond me.

Another thing is that if all these athletes have been caught doping, how come they can compete in the World Cup now? Normally it's a ban for years.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:17 pm

Not only did he provide evidence of the sample switch, he said he conducted studies with Legkov to show how quickly drugs cleared from his system (and were undetectable by testing). That right there is reason for an "adverse finding" or whatever the hell they call it.

If you think the case relies on "scrape marks on a bottle," you need to read the article. Maybe read this too:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/spor ... oping.html

This article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/spor ... mpics.html

makes it sound like this may not be over. We may hear about cheating in previous Olympics. Finally, the reason FIS hasn't imposed sanctions is (they say) because they want to read the full IOC report. If you're suggesting that FIS is slow and broken, I won't argue with you.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:34 am

MN Hoser wrote:Not only did he provide evidence of the sample switch, he said he conducted studies with Legkov to show how quickly drugs cleared from his system (and were undetectable by testing).

Where in the IOC decision does it say that Rodchenkov provided evidence of sample switch or conducted studies with Legkov? Here is a link to the decision: https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Docu ... 1511813711

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:54 am

MN Hoser wrote:If you think the case relies on "scrape marks on a bottle," you need to read the article. Maybe read this too:


No, as I said: "scrape marks on vials and what the lab director said"

AFAICT, the only thing new to what you link to is a computer file from a moscow lab, but can't see what evidence is there.

And again, if this circumstantial evidence is enough for all these athletes to lose their olympic medals and be banned from future olympics, how come they are still allowed to compete elsewhere? How is that even possible?


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