Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:24 am

davidb wrote:As I read this, I can't help wondering how Johaug feels.

I believe Johaug has come to terms with what happened in her case and accepted that she was not without guilt for testing positive. Her case was a clean one, so to speak, without the interference of the IOC (International Olympic Corruption or possibly Incompetent Olympic Committee).

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby JeffOYB » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:13 pm

dcpattie wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:
Neuro wrote:That's incredible..

In a world of lies and deception, the truth seems incredible. I wonder what will happen to Sergej Ustiugov. He is not allowed to compete at the Olympics although he was never accused of any doping or manipulation. The IOC has not given an explanation. That organization is so embarrassing.


I never thought I'd be in the position to defend a Russian athlete but you're analysis is spot on. He has never once tested positive and to my knowledge, never been suspected of doping by those inside the sport.

#LetUstiugovSki


This angle of busting everyone on a dirty team might have the effect of people refusing to have anything to do with programs that have a funny smell. They couldn't say they're guilty of doping but they could be banned for being associated.

Or maybe just the leadership gets banned? How to find a way to encourage team mates to make sure everything is up'n'up? It's more like proving the positive, I mean the negative. Maybe this couldn't be done. Is it possible that ppl are involved w programs where they have zero sense that something is going on? If they DO have this sense they should whistleblow, or maybe indicate -- secretly? -- that they are on the team under duress. ? Maybe try for other citizenship? Just trying to think of how to turn dopers and their bosses into pariahs. How to make that method non-functional. Maybe there's no way.
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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:30 am

JeffOYB wrote:This angle of busting everyone on a dirty team might have the effect of people refusing to have anything to do with programs that have a funny smell. They couldn't say they're guilty of doping but they could be banned for being associated.

You are apparently still into that false concept of guilt by association.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:58 pm

If there was any doubt left, it now turns out IOC will ignore CAS and still ban the athletes.. :roll:

Not exactly related to this, but a team of Swedish investigative reporters in collaboration with others, have managed to obtain blood values for 2000 XC skiers between 2001–2010, and says there are discrepancies with about 300 of them, including WC and Olympic medalists. Not just Russians, from a lot of nations: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/u ... kt-dopning

The way this has been going, I have little faith in any of this and will only accept it if it is thoroughly and completely vetted.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:21 pm

Although it got to be said I've always been suspicious of athletes who suddenly turn up at big championships with a massively good shape compared to their normal standard.

The worst are athletes who illogically will compete for other smaller nations than their own (where testing regimes are lax or non-existant), or who have a training regime which leads them to be by themselves for long periods (where they can dope undisturbed).

Anastasiya Kuzmina is a classic example of this, but in the Swedish article above where they are 99.9% certain about a Swede being drugged, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Johan Olsson, who would go into the woods by himself for long periods, do no competing, and arrive at championships in crazy shape, much like Mika Myllyla before.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby MN Hoser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:59 pm

This reminds me of Lance Armstrong. Not one positive and they took his TdF wins. No due process.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:50 am

Neuro wrote:(...) in the Swedish article above where they are 99.9% certain about a Swede being drugged, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Johan Olsson, who would go into the woods by himself for long periods, do no competing, and arrive at championships in crazy shape, much like Mika Myllyla before.

I suspect it instead is Peter Larsson who normally and naturally had very high hemoglobin levels, often above 180.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:26 am

I believe the basis of this last claim is because of values unusual for the athlete in big events.

That is, they have known average values, which then inexplicably spike to unrealistic levels during championships.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:02 am

Neuro wrote:I believe the basis of this last claim is because of values unusual for the athlete in big events.

That is, they have known average values, which then inexplicably spike to unrealistic levels during championships.

We are a little off topic now, but can you refer me to a web page where your belief is supported?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby JeffOYB » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:57 am

Magnus Johansson wrote:
JeffOYB wrote:This angle of busting everyone on a dirty team might have the effect of people refusing to have anything to do with programs that have a funny smell. They couldn't say they're guilty of doping but they could be banned for being associated.

You are apparently still into that false concept of guilt by association.


No. Not guilt. Just banned.

The challenge is how to make doping a nonstarter. How to make it self-enforcing. Don't focus on dopers. Don't worry about individuals. Make a culture where doping can't even function.

Maybe banning programs and not athletes will make ppl not want to be associated with them.

Still keep testing, though. Because getting around testing is where the cost is. Just buying drugs seems like it would be cheap. The individual could do that, and administer it. Doing the counter-testing and tracking of depletion rates is what requires infrastructure and money. This is where the word starts to leak and the smell appears. So set it up that athletes abandon the team or start to emigrate or move to other flags however they can.

Without testing we have today's fanboy Masters doping -- rich athletes who can buy the drugs. The athlete is far less able to fund a system that defeats ongoing testing.

A little bit like a restaurant I know that shares tips. The owner says he doesn't have to manage the staff. They do it themselves. Weak links are evicted.
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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:21 am

JeffOYB wrote:No. Not guilt. Just banned.

So you believe banning innocent athletes is good?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:44 pm

Magnus Johansson wrote:
Neuro wrote:I believe the basis of this last claim is because of values unusual for the athlete in big events.

That is, they have known average values, which then inexplicably spike to unrealistic levels during championships.

We are a little off topic now, but can you refer me to a web page where your belief is supported?

Did you read the article I linked to? It says outright there.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:04 am

Neuro wrote:
Magnus Johansson wrote:
Neuro wrote:I believe the basis of this last claim is because of values unusual for the athlete in big events.

That is, they have known average values, which then inexplicably spike to unrealistic levels during championships.

We are a little off topic now, but can you refer me to a web page where your belief is supported?

It says outright there.

Then it is not just a belief on your side, right?

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Neuro » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:40 am

It was just a less bombastic way to say it. Don't know why you're making a point of this.

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Re: Russian doping? -- (try again, on topic)

Postby Magnus Johansson » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:10 pm

I have started a separate topic -- Swedish blood doping 2001-2010 -- in this forum about these blood doping accusations which seem almost as interesting as the McLaren report and the Russian doping at Sochi 2014.


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