FORCED striding in classic events?

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FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby JeffOYB » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:37 am

I didn't realize that striding was forced by the new rules in some classic events. Is it just the sprint?

There is a striding zone.

I thought the special zones were where no skating could be used or where some skate steps could be used around a bend.

I thought that DP was being used on entire courses so that kickwax could be omitted. Also that longer poles were used.

So they gave a pole length limit. But I thought to get rid of DP that they just made the hills more frequent and steeper to put the balance back to striding w some kickwax.

Oh well. I guess I kind of understand.

Here's something: Is DPing up a steep hill w/o kickwax still perhaps faster even on that uphill than striding? To me that's what wd put the nail in the coffin for classic.

Actually, then you'd just need truly technical trails to bring back striding. No way is DP faster than striding on the singletrack mtbike trails my friends and I prefer.
Last edited by JeffOYB on Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby Neuro » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:19 am

Vegard Ulvang (skier 85-95) who has worked for FIS for a long time says the double poling 'problem' is practically solved with these measures.

They also include single lanes as much as possible to avoid 'legal cheating' of skating while constantly changing lanes like Poltoranin did double poling to the 2015 Toblach win.

Pundits say the lower pole length has even brought back the kick double pole technique that was being dropped by many in favor of double poling only.

But there's no way double poling up a hill can ever be faster than striding on waxed skis.

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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby JeffOYB » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:34 pm

Neuro wrote:Vegard Ulvang (skier 85-95) who has worked for FIS for a long time says the double poling 'problem' is practically solved with these measures.

...

But there's no way double poling up a hill can ever be faster than striding on waxed skis.


To me the easiest best fix is to make the courses harder, more climbing. Or simply less flat. ...Tho how much rolling-ness wd be reuqired to flush out DP, I don't know.

Kick doublepole is faster up a modest grade than striding, isn't it? I'd think DP is fastest up a SLIGHT uphill.

I'm really surprised about the Stride-Only zones. It seems silly to put them on a flat area. And do you need them on uphills?

Earlier this season I posted about being surprised by seeing striding on such flat terrain coming in to the finish of Davos, maybe it was. Maybe someone even said "zone" but I didn't appreciate what they meant then.
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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby zzzz » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:04 am

Earlier this season I posted about being surprised by seeing striding on such flat terrain coming in to the finish of Davos, maybe it was. Maybe someone even said "zone" but I didn't appreciate what they meant then.


It was Planica in the thread you started thinking the location was Seefeld. I was the one that mentioned a possible technique zone, not knowing what race you were talking about. It turned out not to be a technique zone because there were people double poling as well as diagonal striding.

They don't put technique zones on the flats. They are only placed where it makes sense.

Check out the latest World Cup classic sprints at Drammen. You'll see where they switch from double pole to diagonal stride.

https://youtu.be/mTzGYH8z4sQ

https://youtu.be/ELYBZc8XGpU

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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby Neuro » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:03 am

Should also point out that the sections aren't striding only, they are no double poling.

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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby Neuro » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:28 am

FIS stewards have also been enforcing very strict and fair penalties, which has been very effective to keep things as clean as possible, so kudos to them for that. (There's been the odd favoritism, but very few)

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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby JeffOYB » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:14 am

Neuro wrote:Should also point out that the sections aren't striding only, they are no double poling.


kick doublepoling also not allowed in those zones, right?
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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby dcpattie » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:04 am

With any sport, more rules (and therefore human intervention) always negatively impacts the sport. If they want more striding zones then strategically place harder hills on the course - this will force striding.
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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby Neuro » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:38 am

JeffOYB wrote:
Neuro wrote:Should also point out that the sections aren't striding only, they are no double poling.


kick doublepoling also not allowed in those zones, right?

Yes of course. They just call it no-double poling zones, but there are no other styles than striding anyway.

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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby JeffOYB » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:44 am

Neuro wrote:
JeffOYB wrote:
Neuro wrote:Should also point out that the sections aren't striding only, they are no double poling.


kick doublepoling also not allowed in those zones, right?

Yes of course. They just call it no-double poling zones, but there are no other styles than striding anyway.


OK that was confusing.

There are at least 3 styles. Striding, KDP and DP. Do the zones only ban DP or DP and KDP? ...Please don't just say "yes." :)

...And I enjoy doing SDP -- striding doublepole -- it's a kind of jump doublepole that works on steeper uphills than other doublepoling but it includes striding -- two leg kicks per cycle -- it mirrors V1 as a classic technique.

Only w pure DP would skiers not be using kickwax and not kicking. I don't think the new DP skis are designed for KDP or for using even a small amount of kickwax, tho ppl could feel free to try. Who knows: are they? Probably KDP won't work unless you have proper kickwax in the full kickzone.

I googled the subject and not much comes up.

I suppose the zones will simply look at ARM ACTION and doesn't have any interest in what the legs are doing which relates to kickwax, lack of which is the main reason for the rule. So I suppose in the zones you better be singlesticking and good luck to ya with whatever else you're trying to do. However "doublepole" is also a technique and not just an arm action, so who knows maybe KDP will be allowed since it's a different technique. Seems unlikely. I'm just doublechecking...
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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby Neuro » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:26 am

Sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to point out that the zones are no double poling, and not striding only zone. It's not that one style is mandatory, it's that the other is banned, but in reality it's exactly the same as you say. I guess it's like calling an event 'free-style' when in it's in reality skating. Much ado about nothing really.

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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby JeffOYB » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:01 pm

so they label "kick doublepole" as "doublepoling"?
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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby Neuro » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:29 am

Must be. And I guess they label it like that as they can't call it striding zone in case there's herringbone.

As you say it must be defined by the poles somehow. That they can't be pushed together at the same time.

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Re: FORCED striding in classic events?

Postby zzzz » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:58 am

I found this:

http://waldenxc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2 ... osting.pdf


When it is planned to use zones, the organizer must inform the athletes and team leaders of this the day before (TCM and/or web/notice board/SMS etc). • The information should say the following: "The competition jury has decided to use zones where only diagonal technique with diagonal movements of both arms and legs are allowed. In diagonal technique only one pole is in the ground at any time. All other techniques are not allowed.”


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