better format for WC racing?

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JeffOYB
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better format for WC racing?

Post by JeffOYB » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:47 pm

Rather than boring and confusing interval racing ... or boring and defensive mass start racing ... why not design courses to be more challenging, as with cyclocross, and create a mass start concept that doesn't reward mooching and where people can rally their motivation and skills and move up. Skiers could pace but could also readily hop across gaps using skill. ... this concept could trickle down and make for funner citizen racing as well.
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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by sangreen » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:46 am

"create a mass start concept that doesn't reward mooching"

Could you clarify how a more challenging course could achieve this effect? Challenging in what way --certainly there is plenty of tough climbing and descending in the WC course...?

In most scenarios there is a drag penalty being off the front, so the incentive is to hold back until the end. Only if you could engineer a parcours that offered a strategic advantage to leading the race would there be an impact.

Here's an idea: what about taking the stage race concept and compressing it down to a single day race. Make intermediate checkpoints that are of real consequence to the final outcome of the event (sort of like a criterium prime or intermediate sprint, but more consequential). Assign a point value to each checkpoint and the winner is the competitor with the most (or fewest points --depends on how you are counting). There is a lot you could do with a concept like this --put some at the top of a tough climb, some at the bottom of a technical descent, some in wide open fields, some in narrow wooded sections where bunch sprints are difficult, etc. It would take some time and experimentation to get the spacing and point allocation figured out, but as a concept I think it could work.

I'll leave it to you to figure out how to make interesting TV out of it! :lol: :lol:

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by Neuro » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:48 am

Yeah explain more. I don't really know how it could be made more exciting other than better graphics in the interval like for example a live list with trends, predictions etc.

But generally, those who find XC too boring as it is now should try to watch biathlon. The shooting really shakes it up and can make it very exciting indeed.

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by JeffOYB » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:33 pm

all i can think of is it works for cyclocross. ...i'd have to say the course would need to be really technical. not necessarily having big climbs or descents. it's good to lead in CX. it's also very reasonable to move up. they do world cup events in city parks with CX. don't need very special terrain. also you can usually see a lot of the course in any view. spaghetti course. get close to the racers.

of course hardness is relative. whatever is the case for some reason skiers get defensive in mass start events on the WC.

i like the idea of stages within a single event. that's kind of how we do one of our events. someone can win the best climber, and the best descender. it rewards diff skillsets.
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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by sangreen » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:55 pm

This reminded me of one trail at ABR in Ironwood. I forget the name, it goes right along the river. Anyways, it is a flatish trail that is winding and twisty, like spaghetti. It's been a number of years since I have skied at ABR, but I remember thinking "this is just like cyclocross" and at the same time "I hate this trail!" Total opposite of flow, every time you start to pick up some speed and get a rhythm, another sharp bend or turn.

At this point I am thinking that a CX-type course would be more fun for the spectators than for the participants :-(

But this could easily be a case of different strokes for different folks; admittedly I am not all that fond of CX either --much prefer single track MTB.

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by jt10000 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:19 am

JeffOYB wrote:all i can think of is it works for cyclocross. ...i'd have to say the course would need to be really technical. not necessarily having big climbs or descents. it's good to lead in CX. it's also very reasonable to move up. they do world cup events in city parks with CX. don't need very special terrain. also you can usually see a lot of the course in any view. spaghetti course. get close to the racers.

of course hardness is relative. whatever is the case for some reason skiers get defensive in mass start events on the WC.

i like the idea of stages within a single event. that's kind of how we do one of our events. someone can win the best climber, and the best descender. it rewards diff skillsets.
Yeah. Less "freeway" grooming and more rewards for skills and jamming. Use the terrain, the trees/nature/ to value the resourceful skiier. Gullies and hops. Cross-style moves. Even "catlike" at times. Ya gotta be able to side-step if needed. Keep it real!! Not just "cruise and sprint" :bigsmurf: :albino: :supz: :bigsmurf: :albino: :supz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h--Or5VRTNA

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by Sea&Xc » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:55 pm

What a stupid and ridiculous idea!

Think about the basic abilities of a CC bike. Brakes! Ability to accelerate in a narrow space (24" or less). A CC course can be in a park with lots of twists and turns because of the braking and maneuver advantages of bikes. A skate skier needs 5 feet in width at a minimum to accelerate. NO Brakes so we need width in order to shed speed in order to maneuver through the trails. I'd like to see you race down a hill with a hairpin at the bottom and then sprint uphill and pass someone on a 5' wide course.

I would agree that adding terrain elements jumps, drops, whoops, banked turns would add a layer of excitement.

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by JeffOYB » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:31 am

Ha. It wd be a freestyle race, not a skate race. Classic might allow easier maneuvering. And it wd look a lot better.

Course layout wouldn't be the same as CX -- obviously, creative designers never slavishly imitate anything. It would challenge skiers in ways suitable to the skills and the equipment options. And just as CX bikes aren't the same as roadbikes or mtbikes, ski gear for a fun course might look different. Likely wd be more versatile than 44mm noodles designed for deep tracks.

It seems like XC has the most conservative and boring of all sports and biz establishments. How often do we see PR for it? PR of any type (ads, editorial) that reaches beyond diminishing Masters addicts in the US. How much PR is being done based on Jessie and Kikkan's gold last year?
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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by jt10000 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:00 pm

Yes! Less "train tracks-style" courses and more train the mind and skills.

Action for the fans, with moves they can try at home. Even "cat-like" at times. Who knows, even CAT skis might be best sometimes. Not ride-and-glide, but real challenges like real life. Traverses. Hockey stops. Tele turns.

Pounding the pow. Huck-and-shuckle.

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

Reward the skiers who ski in the real world. Like scandi back in the day.
JeffOYB wrote:How much PR is being done based on Jessie and Kikkan's gold last year?
Jeff, you are onto something. :prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer:

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by Gorf » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:49 am

I don't think XC racing is at all boring, and I'm kind of wondering:

If you feel this way why watch it at all?

Can't we just leave well enough alone?

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by JeffOYB » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:51 pm

it's not well enough at all.

i haven't noticed any PR being done with Jessie and Kikkan's first-ever gold.

also xc and xc racing aren't growing in the us in any reasonable way.

JFT's silly mockery is pointless.

i'm suggesting a mtbike type broad-based democratic counterpoint to the monochromatic roadie type style that comprises XC ski racing at this point.
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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by Gorf » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:35 am

No disrespect intended, but when did Jessie Diggins ask for managerial advice? Do tell!

I think you might be in the wrong sport, after all cross country or Nordic ski is thousands of years old. But given your suggestions, I have to ask:

Have you ever heard of Alpine Skiing?

Freestyle is an Olympic Event!

-or-

Why not buy a Nordic Track?

You could watch some X Games or Monster Truck while getting your workout?

:supz:

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by Blah » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:53 am

JeffOYB wrote:it's not well enough at all.

i haven't noticed any PR being done with Jessie and Kikkan's first-ever gold.

also xc and xc racing aren't growing in the us in any reasonable way.

JFT's silly mockery is pointless.

i'm suggesting a mtbike type broad-based democratic counterpoint to the monochromatic roadie type style that comprises XC ski racing at this point.
Jessie has acquired many sponsorship's from her gold medal...visit her instagram page...

Kikkan got cancer and retired so naturally you are going to hear less from her. That being said she has been really active in the ski community and was recently at the American Birkebeiner.

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by zzzz » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:42 am

I think you are looking for ski orienteering, which is great, but even more obscure than cross country ski racing.

An introduction:
https://youtu.be/S1SggdsbHlk

An actual race from a few days ago. Nice watch actually. I've ski-O raced before but never watched a race until this one. JeffOYB would probably approve.

https://youtu.be/IvIzNmZ2lOI

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Re: better format for WC racing?

Post by Neuro » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Good one. Ski orienteering is surely exactly what Jeff was looking for.

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