Skin ski, what to get?

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Neuro
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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Neuro » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:47 pm

Interestingly, a test done (in March 2016) of all the top models by SkiSport, a Norwegian magazine, the Atomic Redster Skintec came dead last for both poor glide and grip (video looks like the bigger skin was used). Winner was Rossignol R-Skin for best glide and still good grip, second place to Salomon RS Skin, 3rd to Fischer Twin Skin and 4th was Madshus Terrasonic IGS.

It was not clear if the skis were measured for the testers, but one has to assume they were at least within recommended range.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby skiffrace » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:38 am

neuro wrote:It was not clear if the skis were measured for the testers, but one has to assume they were at least within recommended range.

This is an important point. I looked at snapshots of the video, and (based just on the visual part of it) am not impressed with the test.
It appears a group of skiers set out on different skis and then decreed their opinions.
If I were to test glide and grip of skis, I'd do the following:
1. Make it double blind. Remove or tape over the stickers, so persons conducting the test don't know what they are testing.
2. Glide: I would attach the skis to the runners of a sled weighing, say 70 kgs. I would let the sled slide down (by gravity alone) along tracks down a gentle slope easing into a flat terrain, and measure how far the sled would reach.
3. Grip. Harder to measure, but perhaps reverse the glide test. Position the ski-sled on a slope with increasing steepness, and see how steep it gets before the sled slides backward...
--- or something like that
I remember from my mountain biking days tests of full-suspension bicycles conducted by various magazines.
It was not uncommon to see one magazine declare the same bicycle to "handle great" and another "really sucks", both tests based on testers opinions.

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Neuro
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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Neuro » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:47 am

Yes, confirmation bias, prejudices and whatever psychological phenomena that skews true perception is a known thing, isn't it. I remember seeing somewhere a blind test where food critics and chefs were given some new organic super chicken nuggets to sample, and they all said it was very good and then it really was McDonalds..

But in this case I doubt this was too much of an influence as they actually voted down the Atomics which have gotten top spot in previous tests, good mentions in forums and which legend Anders Aukland is personally recommending.

And if they were the wrong camber for the skiers, they would likely not get poor scores in both glide and grip.

A dead weight test like you mention is one thing, but they were also judging stability, push etc.

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Neuro
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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Neuro » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:51 am

Another test of the racing line skin skis was done December 2015 by ski coaches at Geilo ski college, Norway. Here the results were:

1 Atomic Redster Skintec
2 Rossignol R-skin
3 Salomon Equipe RC Skin
4 Atomic Pro Skintec
5 Fischer Twin Skin Race
6 Madshus Terrasonic Intelligrip
7 Atomic Sport Pro Skintec
8 Salomon Aero 9 Skin

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Neuro » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:59 am

While I'm at it, it's worth mentioning that Fredagsbirken 2016 (Friday Birkebeinerrennet) was won on Salomon RC Skin by Petter Soleng Skinstad. http://www.langrenn.com/skinstad-toppet ... -1743.html Although he skis for Team Sport1 which is a line of sports shops that only sells Salomon skin ski, and perhaps deciding his choice, his time of 2h43min was only 23 minutes behind Petter Eliassens record 2:20 and shows the skis must have been as good skin ski as any.

In the picture, he is holding skis with the yellow skin, but he used the black skin with shorter hair for the race. (The pair with the yellow skin was likely given to him by Salomon for the photos so as not to confuse the buying public).

In an article about the race, he says he used 206cm skis (he is 179cm) measured for his weight with a camber similar to normal skis to be used with klister.

The skins were left untouched.

OT, but for reference, he used 147,5 cm poles which for his height at 179cm is about 82,5%.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Neuro » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:47 am

Well my new R-Skins finally arrived and went out for a try. First impressions is that the glide is tremendous. Of course they are brand new without nicks etc, but catching people on skate skis downhill was quite something. The bad was that on certain parts on the downhill slope where the snow was finer, the skin suddenly grabbed so it was a bit challenging.

However, the grip was not all that fantastic on the old sugary artificial snow (ice granules). People with normal skis and what must have been klister, walked straight up where I had to fishbone. I guess it makes sort of sense since it's hard to imagine where the hair will grip on granules and an icy track, but slightly disappointing nevertheless.

The skis were measured for my weight and level of experience, but this was a (Swedish) internet shop that I don't really know so not sure if it was done 100%.

Will come back with more when I've used them further, but as it seems, - and what the testers above say - it seems wise to go for max grip since the glide is so good.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby skiffrace » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:26 am

neuro wrote:old sugary artificial snow

They are making artificial snow for x-country skiing in Oslo? Nice.
As far as your skin-skis, don't worry about the poor grip. Rollerskis have great grip, always.
If the current climatic trends continue, we'll be roller skiing year-round, in nice 5 degree weather in January :D

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Neuro » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:00 am

There's a small loop in Holmenkollen which at around 400 m above sea level and well prepared doesn't melt away easily. Unfortunately, almost all of it apart from the stadium area is the toughest part of the competition course so steep up and down and not much striding.

You're sadly right about the rollerski season getting longer and longer. Not that I mind rollerskiing as I like it almost the same as snow skiing, but would love to be gliding around in a white woods now.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:00 am

skiffrace wrote:If the current climatic trends continue, we'll be roller skiing year-round, in nice 5 degree weather in January :D

It is awful. It seems like the new year will start with 7 C here. The nice snow conditions we had in mid December are already gone.

Neuro wrote:Not that I mind rollerskiing as I like it almost the same as snow skiing, but would love to be gliding around in a white woods now.

Yes, a trail in the woods is nicer than a road with cars, and although I enjoy and think a lot of roller skiing, gliding is better than rolling.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:12 am

Neuro wrote:I guess it makes sort of sense since it's hard to imagine where the hair will grip on granules and an icy track, but slightly disappointing nevertheless.

Maybe you should have followed my advice.

Neuro wrote:The skis were measured for my weight and level of experience, but this was a (Swedish) internet shop that I don't really know so not sure if it was done 100%.

What was the name of the shop? What is the skis' length percentage compared to your height?

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Neuro » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:04 am

Magnus Johansson wrote:Maybe you should have followed my advice.

Maybe, but as is seen from the test above, the grip from the Atomics were deemed to be worse than the Rossignols. But for me it was about price since the difference (with a sale) was quite large.

Magnus Johansson wrote:What was the name of the shop? What is the skis' length percentage compared to your height?

The shop is Outnorth. The percentage is 110% which is not ideal I know, but there are simply no lengths above 208 cm and it would be similar for any brand I think.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby skiffrace » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:16 am

Magnus Johansson wrote:Yes, a trail in the woods is nicer than a road with cars

Where do you guys rollerski up there? Do you really go out on the road with traffic?
Even if my rollerski skills were much better, I would think 3x before venturing there.
For me, it's only bicycle trails, with (reasonably) smooth surface and (reasonably) flat.
This means that regardless if this is Portland, OR, or tri-city, Poland, such places are few and far between.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:14 am

skiffrace wrote:Where do you guys rollerski up there? Do you really go out on the road with traffic?

Yes, countryside roads, but we prefer bicycle trails, or even better: roller ski courses.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Blah » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:23 am

the problem you are having with the skis has nothing to do with the brand. You have a pair of skis that is too stiff for you. All of the R-skins I have skied are very easy to kick.

What is your weight? Did you happen to the keep the stickers that were on the base of the ski? If you have those still I can tell you exactly how close the skis are to your weight. For the R-Skins I tend to pick a ski that is about 4kg over my weight and I still get great kick and glide.

If you are running an NNN binding you could slide the binding forward to improve on your grip, especially in icy conditions where getting grip is more difficult.



Neuro wrote:Well my new R-Skins finally arrived and went out for a try. First impressions is that the glide is tremendous. Of course they are brand new without nicks etc, but catching people on skate skis downhill was quite something. The bad was that on certain parts on the downhill slope where the snow was finer, the skin suddenly grabbed so it was a bit challenging.

However, the grip was not all that fantastic on the old sugary artificial snow (ice granules). People with normal skis and what must have been klister, walked straight up where I had to fishbone. I guess it makes sort of sense since it's hard to imagine where the hair will grip on granules and an icy track, but slightly disappointing nevertheless.

The skis were measured for my weight and level of experience, but this was a (Swedish) internet shop that I don't really know so not sure if it was done 100%.

Will come back with more when I've used them further, but as it seems, - and what the testers above say - it seems wise to go for max grip since the glide is so good.

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Re: Skin ski, what to get?

Postby Blah » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:26 am

Testing by feel is standard practice and there would be no other way to test kick and glide while kicking which are the most important aspects for a skin ski.
If you wanted to do a glide out test, impossible to make this scientific between brands so this would be bogus anyway....you can get glide out testing equipment or do a partner glide out test pretty effectively.


skiffrace wrote:
neuro wrote:It was not clear if the skis were measured for the testers, but one has to assume they were at least within recommended range.

This is an important point. I looked at snapshots of the video, and (based just on the visual part of it) am not impressed with the test.
It appears a group of skiers set out on different skis and then decreed their opinions.
If I were to test glide and grip of skis, I'd do the following:
1. Make it double blind. Remove or tape over the stickers, so persons conducting the test don't know what they are testing.
2. Glide: I would attach the skis to the runners of a sled weighing, say 70 kgs. I would let the sled slide down (by gravity alone) along tracks down a gentle slope easing into a flat terrain, and measure how far the sled would reach.
3. Grip. Harder to measure, but perhaps reverse the glide test. Position the ski-sled on a slope with increasing steepness, and see how steep it gets before the sled slides backward...
--- or something like that
I remember from my mountain biking days tests of full-suspension bicycles conducted by various magazines.
It was not uncommon to see one magazine declare the same bicycle to "handle great" and another "really sucks", both tests based on testers opinions.


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