Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

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Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby JeffOYB » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:34 pm

I'm thinking two reasons.

#1: I suppose that dblpoling by itself works good with longer poles than when you have to include singlesticking in the mix. (Why does striding require a shorter pole? Because you're not standing up as high when you plant? Because it doesn't have as much torso compression onto each pole plant?) Does DP classic when done w/o regard to FIS rules ideally use poles exactly the same length as skating?

#2: I'm guessing that skating ideally uses longer poles than DP Classic. This might be because the poles plant farther back and akimbo to the sides in V1. Do they? ...The "lower" offside pole in V1 does plant farther back and to the side but the offside hand is also lower. The powerside pole doesn't seem to be unusually positioned. ?
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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby Neuro » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:31 am

Hm, don't know the technicals of this, but some World Cup racers have ridiculous long poles (check biathlete Birkeland for example).

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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby Magnus Johansson » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:13 am

JeffOYB wrote:Why does striding require a shorter pole? Because you're not standing up as high when you plant? Because it doesn't have as much torso compression onto each pole plant?

I would answer "yes" to both latter questions.

JeffOYB wrote:Does DP classic when done w/o regard to FIS rules ideally use poles exactly the same length as skating?

No, there seemed to be a preference in the classic style ski marathon races for a length between classic and skating poles, around 87% of body height.

JeffOYB wrote:The "lower" offside pole in V1 does plant farther back and to the side but the offside hand is also lower.

The lower hand is a result of the pole plant further away from the body.

JeffOYB wrote:The powerside pole doesn't seem to be unusually positioned?

The powerside hand used to be in a higher starting position in the late 1980's and some years into the 1990's.

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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby JeffOYB » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:02 pm

Magnus Johansson wrote:
JeffOYB wrote:The "lower" offside pole in V1 does plant farther back and to the side but the offside hand is also lower.

The lower hand is a result of the pole plant further away from the body.


So why is skate longer?
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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby zzzz » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:15 pm

Jeff, this is kind of weird. I know you ski. Can't you feel the need for the difference yourself? What pole lengths do you use and how tall are you? How do those poles feel to you while doing classic and skate?

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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby JeffOYB » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:01 am

zzzz wrote:Jeff, this is kind of weird. I know you ski. Can't you feel the need for the difference yourself? What pole lengths do you use and how tall are you? How do those poles feel to you while doing classic and skate?


Science.

Of course I ski.

I'm wondering WHY.

I rarely fool around w strictly DP in classic so I haven't personally compared how the lengths wd feel. But I'm interested in the science. It seems like it would be very clear.

We see that classic DP events use poles longer than regular classic but shorter than skate DP. So is the reason why skate poles are longer due to the offset of the skis vee?

The only diff I see is the splay of the skis. No ergonomic difference. Is that the right reason?
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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby zzzz » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:40 pm

Science isn't how the pole lengths were determined. It was by trial and error and how the different lengths feel. There have been trends, such as super long poles when skating was new that were reduced later. But those trends haven't been determined by science. Maybe they have been backed up by science - I don't know - but they were not established by science.

Skating with classic poles, my hands come up pretty low. It's obvious that it's not optimal. It's using a different range of motion in the arms than classic skiing with classic length poles (both diagonal and double poling) or skating with skate length poles. The V configuration of the skis is a factor, but your overall form determines how high the pole straps end up. It's just geometry, not anything more complicated. It ends up being about 10 cm difference for the average guy for the push to feel similar, simple as that.

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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby Rto_11 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:50 pm

Classic poles are shorter because you can get the power of your shoulders over them easier while striding, and skate pole are longer to give better reach and a longer push, because you are essentially double poling while moving your legs, and when you double pole with skate poles you can push further, giving you much more power per stroke.

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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby JeffOYB » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:40 pm

zzzz wrote:Science isn't how the pole lengths were determined. It was by trial and error and how the different lengths feel. There have been trends, such as super long poles when skating was new that were reduced later. But those trends haven't been determined by science. Maybe they have been backed up by science - I don't know - but they were not established by science.

Skating with classic poles, my hands come up pretty low. It's obvious that it's not optimal. It's using a different range of motion in the arms than classic skiing with classic length poles (both diagonal and double poling) or skating with skate length poles. The V configuration of the skis is a factor, but your overall form determines how high the pole straps end up. It's just geometry, not anything more complicated. It ends up being about 10 cm difference for the average guy for the push to feel similar, simple as that.


By science I mean geometry.

Maybe tempo is a factor. Because the kick in skating is longer maybe we have more time we can spend poling so why not lengthen them a bit. ?
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Re: Technique: Why are skate poles longer?

Postby JeffOYB » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Rto_11 wrote:Classic poles are shorter because you can get the power of your shoulders over them easier while striding, and skate pole are longer to give better reach and a longer push, because you are essentially double poling while moving your legs, and when you double pole with skate poles you can push further, giving you much more power per stroke.


Right, classic is shorter when striding. But classic is also shorter when doing pure DP events. Why is that? A clue might be because, as you say, in skating we're DPing while moving our legs. And maybe the pole plants need to be outside the range of this motion so they don't interfere? Not sure. I plant my skate poles maybe a bit further back than I do when classic DPing.

Maybe tempo is faster even in pure classic DP than it is for skating. And so maybe we can have our hands higher while skating yet not bog down?

I'm only guessing that our hands start working higher up while skating than while classic DPing.

I figured somebody would've already measured all the geometry and had an explanation that could easily be linked to... So I wouldn't have to study the video myself.
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